Hi Platt
Sorry for the delay in replying
On 21 Sep 2001 at 10:00, Platt Holden wrote:
> P: What you seem to be saying is that war is not justifiable by any
> means under any circumstances. Is that what you're saying?
>
> H: As I didn’t say it that isn't what I meant.
>
> P: I’m glad you concede the point that war is sometimes necessary.
Wouldn't deny it. I can't see any reason to justify it in these current circumstances
though.
> H: The UN has taken more than 13 billion to compensate Kuwait for
> the war and to "administer" the OFF program. In other words, more
> money has gone into administration and to compensate Kuwait than to
> feed and provide medical care for the Iraqi people.
>
> P: Outrageous. I'm in favor of disbanding the UN. It’s incredibly
> bureaucratic, totally ineffective and anti-British/American.
You missed out anti-Israeli. But this isn't surprising seeing as how the US, UK and
Israel (to name but 3) all ignore UN resolutions when it suits them or block
inquiries where the outcome may be embarassing - as is the case with Sudan.
The intriguing thing is though that all of the above get very stroppy when someone
like Saddam Hussein does the same. I think the term for this is hypocrisy. And far
from disbanding it I'd love to see it have much sharper teeth.
>
> H: And while we’re on the subject of that scumbag Saddam, would
> anyone care to enlighten me as to why the liberating of the West
> stopped short of moving into Baghdad and capturing Saddam
> Hussein?
>
> P: Many Americans, including me, have asked the same question. This
> time, let's get him.
Right! Like we've been bombing Iraq for the last several years for fun. But I'm sure
you know as well as I do that to have gone into Baghdad and taken him would've
ended up raising some very embarassing questions and answers - embarassing
for the West anyway. And there were too many camera's around to risk
assassinating him.
>
> H: So let me get this straight. When an elected government of a
> constitutional democracy supports terrorism and provides training and
> weapons and finance to terrorist groups this is OK.
>
> P: You got it right. Defenders of liberty should never be asked to tie their
> hands behind their backs.
OK let's start from your initial premiss:
PLATT:
"I interpret the MOQ view to be that those who are terrorists and those countries
who support and/or tolerate terrorists have the moral standing of germs and like
germs must be deliberately and ruthlessly annihilated by all means at our
disposal."
I was born and brought up in London, England and remember well the bombing
campaigns carried out by the IRA. I was within 5 minutes of being killed or injured
myself in 1973 when I was working in Oxford Street and a bomb went off causing
death and destruction. There were various other occurences such as this, like the
Harrods bomb and the Hyde Park bombing. Additionally there were pub bombings
which resulted in a number of persons being killed and maimed. In Northern
Ireland there have been, I believe, in excess of 3000 people killed by terrorist
violence.
The U.S. has supported the IRA and tolerated members of the IRA. It has blocked
extradition of self-confessed terrorists and allowed financial aid to be gathered and
passed on to this organisation. The US has also supplied numerous weapons to
the IRA. All of the attacks by the IRA on the British have been against a
democratically elected government.
By your reasoning the U.S. has the moral standing of a germ.
PLATT:
"You got it right. Defenders of liberty should never be asked to tie their hands
behind their backs."
To continue to use the U.S. as an example, much of the reasoning behind the
threats against Iraq, Pakistan etc. are of the "My enemy's friend is my enemy"
variety which also must include "My enemy's enemy is my friend ".
To take this reasoning to it's logical conclusion, the attack on the WTC was by
friends of the UK and other democratic countries and were part of the defense of
liberty in association with these other countries. Why should WE have our hands
tied when it comes to the tools we use?
I imagine the lesson here is that before you go condemning others for their crimes
it's probably useful to examine your [coutry's] own shortcomings.
> H: America, England, Australia, India, Israel, Iraq, Iran, Palestine,
> Afghanistan, etc. are all SOCIAL patterns of value. None of them were
> created by intellectual values.
>
> P: Disagree. England and the U.S were created by the intellectual
> values of trial by jury, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, etc.
> Surely you are thankful for the Magna Carter. I am, and I'm not British.
I have a copy of the Magna Carta somewhere nearby but as I'm not one of the
aristocracy whose rights are being defended I can't see that it does me much
good. Surely you don't think John Lackland gave a stuff about the peasants and
slaves in England when he drafted that. Or are you confusing this with some form
of written constitution or rights or whatever.
> H: The forms of government that emerge from these social patterns
> are indistinguishable if they perform the same low value actions. . . . I
> do try to apply any standards evenly and that includes looking at the
> actions governments take.
>
> P: If there is moral equivalency between nations, we may as well hand
> over our weapons to Hussein right now.
Well by your reasoning (see above) this is probably the case. I don't think
Saddam has been caught red-handed organising and supporting terrorist groups,
lots of rumours though.
>
> H: Brains not muscle is the only way to sort out this mess.
>
> P: So we call in a bunch of psychologists and invite Bin Laden to a
> seminar on conflict resolution? I don’t think so.
I was thinking more in the way of diplomats and peace talks but if you don't think
the U.S. is up to it....
Horse
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