well i feel very much like i have found stupidity. becuase now i remember
what this confab is about.
-----Original Message-----
From: Anderson, Marceo [mailto:MANDERS8@aegonusa.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:01 PM
To: 'moq_discuss@moq.org'
Subject: RE: MD Logical Conclusions Anyone?
Well i am very hazed on to why this chat is coming to me at my job, But if
opinons are to be voiced. I think that everyone missing the big picture and
not looking into the future of what this religous maddness will produce.
first if fareness is to be displayed in a point.The point should be that all
men are men which means that just because we are defantly more advanced
than the primitive crude middle east nations,dose not give use the freedom
to dazle our way into their land as was doneto the american indians ,the
aboriginal tribes,and any other form of humanity that modern man has laid
there laws upon while in the process taking over their land. which lead to
the sep 11 act of stupidity by the moron bin ladin.The fact is that humanity
means diversity none greater than the next and when man invaids another
world it can make waves the only true victims being the ones in those planes
on sep 11 and those mislead children within the barren land of the middle
east.and dropping radios to try to explain is just like giving the indian
shiny things for soul washing.basicly my point is that i am religous at
all,but i don,t dislike anyone except to much control by blind men no
greater than the next.but after this is over nothing will ever be the same
and instead of hundreds of new laws a year well have double.(farenheit
451)people can not see it due to the wonderful things we have to hide the
fact that we are all caged animals within a goverment covered cage.like the
other people and the other cages all around the world we are becoming
victims to our own machines that we designed,and im not talking about metal
but political machines. I am not anti goverment but i don,t like watching so
called freedom and knowing its not. But regardless i shall still back my
country.be we are becoming farenheit 451 451 451 451 451 451 451 451 451 451
.........
ps i like star trek.
0
-----Original Message-----
From: Platt Holden [mailto:pholden@sc.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 11:43 AM
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: Re: MD Logical Conclusions Anyone?
Hi Horse, Jonathan, All:
Horse, rather than attempt to rebut each of your arguments (for there is
no persuading one who has his mind made up), I will contest just one
passage in your recent post because it specifically involves an
interpretation of the MOQ in which you deny the biological level of crime.
HORSE:
"In reducing human beings to the level of germs you are negating the
entire concept of the MOQ. Germs have not an ounce of either social or
intellectual value and the eradication of a germ is an entirely different
concept to eradication of human life. To say that taking any human life
is the equivalent of destroying a germ is ridiculous in the extreme.
Whatever you may believe of another human being they are created by
all four static levels of Quality and have the ability to respond to
Dynamic Quality."
Now let's look at the evidence that supports my contention that,
according to the MOQ, criminal behavior stems from the biological level
and is morally on a par with the behavior of animals, bugs and germs.
PIRSIG:
"The idea that biological crimes can be ended by intellect alone, that
you can talk crime to death, doesn't work. Intellectual patterns cannot
directly control biological patterns. Only social patterns can control
biological patterns, and the instrument of conversation between society
and biology is not words. The instrument of conversation between
society and biology has always been a policeman or a soldier and his
gun." (24)
Under the SOM intellectual pattern, Pirsig's statement is ridiculous.
There is no such thing as "biological crime." There is only social crime
caused inevitably by some form of social injustice--child neglect, lack
of opportunity, racism, sexism--you name it, SOM always finds an
excuse (as in the case of excusing terrorism because of Western
arrogance, neglect, bombing--whatever). But under the MOQ
intellectual pattern, we get a whole new view (a new set of spectacles)
of the nature of crime. Again and again Pirsig says crime is a conflict
between biological and social levels.
PIRSIG:
"What's coming out of the urban slums . . . (is) a reversion to rule by
terror, violence and gang death--the old biological might-makes-right
morality of prehistoric brigandage that primitive societies were set up
to overcome." (24)
Note the emphasis again on "biological" and "rule by terror," as if Pirsig
had the likes of Bin Laden and his merry men in mind when he wrote
those words.
PIRSIG:
"Thus, throughout this century we have seen over and over again that
intellectuals weren't blaming crime on man's biological nature, but on
the social patterns that had repressed this biological nature. At every
opportunity, it seems, they derided, denounced, weakened and
undercut these Victorian social patterns of repression in the believe
that this would be the cure of man's criminal tendencies." (22)
The MOQ clearly blames crime on man's "biological nature." That the
terrorists used a social value (religious belief) to overcome biological
nature (suicide) makes their crimes doubly horrendous.
PIRSIG:
"In the battle of society against biology, the new twentieth-century
intellectuals have take biology's side. Society can handle biology alone
by means of prisons and guns and police and the military. But when
the intellectuals in control of society take biology's side against society,
then society is caught in the cross fire from which it has no protection."
(24)
An SOM pattern would never consider that soldiers fighting humans
are fighting biological forces. Note that the MOQ, however, puts human
aggressors in the same biological category as deadly germs--both
being assaults on social values and both bent on killing.
PIRSIG:
"There had always been a battle here between intense legions of the
most Dynamic and most moral on one side, confronting the most
biological and least moral at the other; between A-class people and F-
class people." (24)
The notion of F-class "biological" people is anathema to SOM types
who, having no way to distinguish between good and bad (morals are
subjective), say that human behavior is be judged on the basis of a
cultural context. Pirsig, by contrast, says if your behave like an animal
by initiating physical force on others, you should be judged as such
regardless of context. What do we do with dangerous animals? We kill
them or confine them.
PIRSIG:
"From the hotel window, looking out across the park, it seemed as if
you could see from the north, from the ghetto areas there, a dreadful
night, and eclipse of social patterns by invading unchecked biological
patterns, closing in and gradually putting New York into a sleep from
which it might never recover. It isn't a war of races or of cultures. It's a
war of society against patterns of reason and patterns of biology that
have been set loose by the mistakes of this century." (24)
If Pirsig had seen the planes hit the Trade Center towers from his hotel
window, he might have described what occurred using the same
language--patterns of biology at war with society. (Note it isn't a war of
cultures as some suggest.) Luckily, America has representatives in
power who have not succumbed to SOM's moral impotence and are
still capable of identifying unmitigated evil when they see it, i.e., when
(in Pirsig's phrase) "biological quality becomes evil itself."
PIRSIG:
"Intellectuals must find biological behavior, no matter what its ethnic
connection, a limit or destroy destructive biological patterns with
complete moral ruthlessness, the way a doctor destroys germs, before
those biological patterns destroy civilization itself." (24)
If this doesn't reduce human beings who commit crimes (terrorists) to
the level of germs, then you and I differ in understanding what words
mean. Far from negating the entire concept of the MOQ as you claim, it
is an essential feature of the MOQ structure to place terrorists at the
biological level.
PIRSIG:
"Primitive tribes such as the American Indians have no record of
sweetness and cooperation with other tribes. They ambushed them,
tortured them, dashed their children's brains out on rocks. If man is
basically good, them maybe it is man's basic goodness which
invented social institutions to repress this biological land of savagery
in the first place." (24)
"Biological land of savagery" aptly describes the lands of Taliban, Abu
Nidal, Hamas, Hezbollah, Asbat al-Asnar, Islamic Jihad, al Gama al
Islamiyya and other primitive tribes within the Al Qaeda network.
To summarize: My interpretation of the MOQ is plain, backed by a whole
series of specific quotes from LILA: Crime is a biological value.
Terrorism is a crime. Ergo, terrorism is biological and should be
responded to as such.
I agree with the moral values expressed in the MOQ and believe we
have a moral obligation to go after the terrorists with "complete moral
ruthlessness" and squash them and their supporters like bugs before
their "biological savagery" destroys civilization.
Now let's here your version of the MOQ vis a vis terrorism. I would
especially like to know where you find in the MOQ support for your
belief that "negotiation and dialogue are the only things that will solve
this problem."
Platt
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