John, Bo and MD....
(and a p.s. to Platt)
John:
> Marco - You raise the issue of the difference between morals and ethics. I
> assume morals relate to discerning good from bad, or right from wrong, in
> human behaviour, while ethics is about the philosophical study of moral
> behaviour and the rules that govern it.
>
> I agree that there are endless varieties of moral constructs on offer, and
> many conflicts and contradictions between them. When Pirsig says we all
know
> quality when we meet it, it sounds like the basis for an ethical system.
But
> it doesn't work, at least at that level, hence my agreement with Roger's
> assessment. (morally bereft)
As often, I find you exaggerate (sorry). I think when Pirsig says we all
know what Quality is, he just means we have in our own nature the tools to
choose what's better, and that we don't need necessarily "the others"
(social level). That is like to say that the human being, the individual,
*CAN BE* more moral than the social environment he/she lives within, so
he/she should have the right to act and fail (by the way, the failure of a
single is a relatively small problem, the failure of a social structure is
always a tragedy).
The MOQ is a moral map, by definition. It can't be an ethical system we
agree upon, as according to the MOQ itself every single individual should
have the right, maybe even the duty, to read the moral map and choose its
own behaviour. Pragmatically, I'd say, we will see the results. That is what
Bo says:
> I have never understood the demand for a moral guide. Pirsig has
> presented a metaphysics that EXPLAINS the world better than the
> SOM, and that's all that counts for me. Remember: ...What is
> Good and what is not good - need we ask anyone to tell us these
> things?
Exactly, my friend. :-)
John again:
> Pirsig says somewhere in Lila that there are only
> the four static levels, and dynamic quality, and nothing is excluded once
> they are defined. He also says they are 'discreet' (sic).Yet in the past
> month on this forum there has been a total inability of intelligent people
> to come to a conclusion as to whether terrorists are 'biological', hence
to
> be treated like germs, or social or intellectual also, or ultimately
> intellectual (which is the way I read Pirsig).
But tell me. Who says that it is right to have agreement on things? Why
should we come to a conclusion? Generally, I don't see a great agreement
elsewhere on how we should treat the Afghans, or on the eventual reasons of
the terrorists. That's why I'm not worried by this supposed ethical
inability of the MOQ. Because within the MOQ it is implied the
impossibility, the immorality I'd say, of a general agreement. The Brujo
story is a clear example of the morality of disagreement!
I also have my part of disagreement on a mainstream interpretation of the
MOQ I read on this forum. That is regarding the intellectual level as
*reason*. IM very HO this position brings a problem about the role of art. I
... feel that art, especially when it is an individual expression not in
service of some social purpose, pertains to the higher possible level. Just
like reason. Actually, it is the best tool in order to investigate and know
our selves (that is the greatest knowledge).... much, much better than
reason. So, I have come to the conclusion that according to the four-level
map Pirsig offers, art can be a great tool in order to build and refine
intellectual patterns of value.
On that, we will see the "total inability of intelligent people" to agree.
Blame on the MOQ? No. Just, it is a good disagreement within the same moral
framework. That's why I don't want to stress to convince you that Pirsig is
not fascist (Denis did it rightly) as I'm glad to read from you:
> .... Pirsig still makes the profound point that quality
> is more basic than things or ideas, which have themselves developed as
> static residues of experiences of quality.
that means IMHO that you also are not outside the MOQ map. :-)
bye,
Marco
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