Denis, MD
*** Identity ***
DENIS:
Marco, your post summarize the notion of identity in a very clear fashion,
but I still have a problem, here.
>In this I see a great similarity with other kind of systems: especially,
>with biological systems like us (we change almost all our cells in few
days,
>but still we keep our identity). In both cases, the identity of the system
>is not their... substance, but their pattern.
Exact, the identity of a "thing" is its pattern. Or should we say "patterns"
? You see, if I describe a city by its "pattern" (singular), there is
nothing that I can say about it without going into details. If I say "Rome",
I'm refering to a location, a historical place, the laws that govern it, the
people who live in it, and a great number of other things besides. I do not
"need" to think about all this when I say "Rome". To communicate, we just
have to assume that we're speaking about the same thing (the present-day
capital of Italy, as opposed to, say, the Roman Empire, or the metro station
in Paris). So Rome, while an apt moniker and a worthy tool of communication,
does not designate a "pattern" in the MOQ levels, that we could clearly
define, but a "location" in a four-tiered metaphysical space. "Rome" is a
concept of the intellectual level (of the simplest kind, since its only a
"name"), a social system of great complexity, a number of organisms that
animate it, and a physical location with complex inorganic constructs.
"Rome" looks to me like a kind of geological "carrot" of a region composed
of four strata, the levels.
MARCO:
Complete agreement, even if that singular "pattern" was not a mistake. Let
me explain. Of course Rome is a four-level entity, and it's a complex mix of
patterns of all levels. In my post I was focused on the concept of the Giant
(the "social" Rome), so I was just talking about one only level. More
precisely, I was talking of social behaviors and rituals that are using
Roman human beings and Roman buildings and so on as support. This is the
Giant.
Of course, I agree there are infinite social patterns composing the Giant
"Rome". All the collective behaviors that make it possible the function of
families,schools, banks, churches, football teams, traffic... are different
social patterns. But my point is that also the Giant is a pattern; a pattern
of patterns. I mean, if you want to add a new pattern to a system like a
Social Giant, or a Biological Being, or an Intellectual Paradigm, this
pattern should be able to cooperate with the other patterns.. and the result
is that necessarily all the patterns cooperate to a patterned *net of
patterns*. A Giant is a pattern as its behavior is patterned. In Italy
there are dozens of cities, and we can find a lot of common traits to name
them as Cities, and as Italian Cities. The way they evolve and grow and
behave is very similar.
And another point: not only single biological individuals and single
buildings can be replaced without damaging the Giant. Also single social
patterns can become obsolete and then replaced by new patterns. This is
evolution. The ancient religion of the Romans is not the actual religion of
the Pope: diverse rituals, laws, hierarchies.... but Rome is still Rome!
Just, a bit evolved.
On this, I must confess that once I criticized Dan Glover as he wrote that
"man is a pattern", and I corrected him writing that "man is a mix of
patterns". Well, today I must apologize with Dan and state that both the
sentences are right, IMHO.
DENIS:
I think "identity" is another one of these SOM platypi, a consequence of
SOM's need for atomic "things", truths that cannot be reduced to smaller
bits, eventually leading to simple prejudices and subjectivity ("the horror,
the horror..." ;). Patterns of value need no such artifice, because at the
core of each value is Quality, and since Quality cannot be defined... Value
is what your immediately comprehend, your "pre-intellectual" feelings, that
eventually agregate into patterns. Analyse (in the sense that Russel
defined) is OK, but not because it leads us to truths, but because it leads
us to other patterns and values, to new depths, and that, my dear friends,
is Good.
MARCO:
I'm not sure that identity is just a SOM platypus. I see animals with a
great survival instinct. They *biologically know* what's better for them.
They can also identify their similar fellows and fear their enemies, so they
... feel(?) something like identity. That's enough for me to state that
identity exists already at the biological level.
The SOM Platypus is substance. It's the intellectual concept that we are
*made of* matter, or whatever else mechanically determined by physical laws.
No, I am a system, an organization, a pattern of patterns, a configuration
of Value. I can focus my attention on my intellectual "me" (my intellectual
identity) and say that my inorganic "me" (atoms, molecules, or whatever
else) is continuously changing, while I'm still "me"... But paradoxically,
seen from my inorganic viewpoint, my atoms could say they are changing
"their" intellectual pattern (or, more correctly, the intellectual patterns
they are supporting) while they are still "them".
This is valid for all "viewpoints" (levels), if we try to imagine them
paradoxically looking at the others levels. But really, these static
viewpoints are all partial, and definitely wrong, as nothing in this system
I can call "me" is fixed. All my patterns are changing. Just, this change is
not completely free and disordered. It's... patterned. And this patterned
continuous change of patterns is, in the end,
my identity.
*** Wealth and Democracy ***
DENIS:
USA and Europe are often guilty of ignoring the basic needs of the people
they claim they want to "liberate" and "democratize", thus dooming their
project in advance. They think (or pretend to think) that wealth grows from
democracies where every historic fact points in the opposite direction :
democracies were born from wealthy societies. The fight for equal rights was
always led by a wealthy and educated elite. And if anyone can point any
example of the opposite, I'd be interested to hear them.
In retrospect, I would not. Enough time is already lost trying to justify
our imperial leanings on this forum. Let's just say, for those who have
ears, that justifying financial extortion with beautiful phrases is nothing
short of the prostitution of Intellect to Society.
MARCO:
Well, Denis, both viewpoints are IMO wrong. It is not democracy that creates
wealth and it is not wealth that creates democracy. Both wealth AND
democracy are positive steps towards a better world and they can't be
constituted separately. Like two feet, they walk together. Is the left foot
leading to the right step or vice versa?
There are examples of sudden richness gained by a country (think of Spain
when they discovered all that gold in South America, or, more recently, of
Saudi Arabia when they discovered all that Oil). In those cases, richness
did not help to create democracy. Usually an elite of governors, wealthy and
educated, does not spend its time and money in the creation of democracy.
Quite the contrary.
On the other hand, it's a legend that giving a poor nation democracy and/or
free market increases its wealth. Those bringing the examples of Italy and
Germany and Japan and South Korea and Taiwan should not forget that America
gave those countries free market, sometimes democracy, and ... a lot of
money, as there was the risk of communism in those countries, at the
borderline of Russian and Chinese empires. I always ask why the same recipe
did not work in Philippines and Mexico.
*** Machine Codes ***
DENIS:
>> "DNA for I/B, nervous system for B/S, Language for S/Int
>> (last two are proposed by me). In every case,
>> the machine code is capable of creating, preserving
>> and passing on data, every time at a higher level
>> (cellular organisation, behaviours, concepts).
>
MARCO:
>... I don't see the evidence for nervous system as being the machine code
>for the social level. Firstly, 'cause the nervous system is not a code,
>really (while DNA is). Then, there are several species of animals with a
>well working and developed nervous system and almost a zero social
>behavior. Few months ago I've suggested that in order to have a social
>pattern, there's the need of communication. In few words, we can build
>social behaviors, rituals, rules only if we use some kind of communication
>to unify individual patterns into shared (social) patterns. I think that in
>all the examples of social pattern we will find a basilar communication
>*made of* some biological signal (from pheromones to voice....).
>
DENIS:
You're right, communication makes a far better candidate. You have to
differentiate it from language, though. A sign-post is as much communication
as a sentence. Let's draw the line between semiology and linguistics !
MARCO:
Well, we can draw the line. And, I guess, we are not the first, so the job
should not be that hard. But I must confess I have also doubts about
language, and, more generally, on the concept of "machine code". Maybe, the
machine code thing is valid only for the inorganic/biological step. Maybe,
the other steps could need more than one single "code".
Anyway, even if we accept the machine code thing, you can find my latest
point about it in my "things and levels" post of last July.
<http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/0107/0199.html>
It's long, sorry, and you can take all the time you want to read and
demolish it :-) . In few words, I suggest a criterion to assign things to
levels: things basically *emerge* at one given level, then they are
available and empowered at all the superior levels. Thus, communication
emerges at the social level, and then the superior level (intellect)
empowers it up to symbolic language for its purposes. More than language, it
seems to me more appropriate to state that rituals are the social code for
intellectual patterns, according also to chapter 30 of Lila.....
Let me know.
tschao,
Marco
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