Hi Marco, Rog, Platt and all
This thread seems to be yet another offspring of the "Logical Conclusions"
one, and thus one I had vowed never to participate in. Using the MOQ to
defend this or that policy seems too much like prostituting the MOQ to the
social level, IMHO.
So what I am doing here ? In fact, I'm only here to offer a story.
Once upon a time, I went to Atlanta because my sister had met an American
guy during her studies abroad, and after falling in love with him decided
that marriage was probably the best way to go. She had met her future
husband at an Church-sponsored rafting excursion that my sister went to
while she was an "au pair" girl for an American family. Of course these
latter wanted to meet us since they were the ones (indirectly) responsible
for such a grand occasion... Being all nice people, we naturally got on well
and I was invited the next day for supper and a trip to Stone Mountain for a
laser show.
At some point during the evening, we finally went to Stone Mountain, and
while the show was pretty boring, we had a nice chat and generally a good
time. Then, my attention was struck by the first two verses of a song. They
went :
"I'm proud to be an American,
'Cause at least I know I'm free..."
This, I can tell you, was quite a shock. Much of the rest of the song was in
the same vein, and looking around me I could see all these people laying on
the grass with this serious look on their faces. Then the song ended, and as
I looked at the american woman that had brought us here, I realized she was
on the verge of tears. With tremors in her voice, she told my mother : "It's
my favorite song !"
Now I guess, Platt will be thinking : "What was so extraordinary ?"
Well, what is so extraordinary is that until that moment, I thought that
Europeans and Americans had, broadly speaking, the same way of thinking. We
are both from Christian cultures and are both rationalists, so I thought
that our differences would only be "comestic" ones (remember that I only was
21 years old, then).
But the fact is, anyone in France singing "I'm proud to be French because at
least I know I'm free" would be laughed off the stage. And I do not mean
that I would laugh, or that the people I hang out with would laugh, I mean
that EVERYONE would. There's no way this could be understood as anything
more than a joke. And if the songwriter was serious about it, people would
probably dismiss him as a lunatic.
I do not mean by this that French people do not love their country (they are
so arrogant about it that it's certainly not true), or that you can't make
songs about it ("Douce France" is still a classic after 60 years). It's just
that patriotism, the certainty of living in the best possible society, has
been shot in the chest in 1914, decapitated in 1941, put in the mangler in
1968 and has never reappeared since, much to the relief of the population at
large. It is now considered just as quaint to be a hard-core patriot as it
is to be a devout religious person. In fact, religion and patriotism are
mostly held to be made of the same stuff : blind faith unsupported by any
kind of evidence, and only upheld by people who do not think that much
(while I agree that this is insulting to patriots and religious people, it
IS the general feeling here, sorry).
Before I am accused of being an atheistic communistic bastard who hates his
own country, let me state here that a recent poll has shown that 52% of the
french population declare themselves "without religion", and that among the
48% remaining, only about 20% of them have a regular religious practice
(that's less than 10% of the adult population, folks). So I'm not alone,
here.
>From a personnal experience, I would also add that most French people I know
have no intention of emigrating to another country (I'm the only one who
would even consider it, in fact, and that's because I'm *naturally*
bi-cultural), and that if asked where they would prefer to live, mainly they
like their own country better.
But they certainly do not think that theirs is the best society, and are
only too conscious of the enormous problems and injustice around them. All
more sad, of course, is to know that often, as in the case of sub-saharian
Africa, France has some responsability for the horrors commited here (mainly
by way of financially supporting the dictators who have our own best
economic interest in mind).
The only people who have this kind of patriotic rabid defense of France,
here, are the same extreme-right militants that advocate deporting all
"foreigners and immigrants" back to their own countries. And even them, I
believe, would not take such a song too seriously.
>From what I know of the UK (I have family there, my mother being British),
that feeling is not unique to France. I have to ask Marco and Bodvar if
Italy and Norway are of the same mood, but my guess would be that most
European countries no longer hold patriotism in high regard.
So of course, when we Europeans meet someone like Platt Holden, or the
American woman I was talking about, we are somewhat "taken aback" by the
*purity* of their feelings for their country. And of course, it's all the
stranger when we realize that they ALSO are rational people, and not idiotic
hate-mongers like the kind we've got here. Of course, not all Americans have
the same views, but from my experience, it is a 60% majority that would
agree with Platt's statement that "the U.S. is a shining beacon of freedom
to billions around the world.".
The European credo is something more in the line of :
We hold these truths to be universal and self-evident that :
1) ALL countries and governments only defend the best interests of their
politic and economic leaders.
2) Patriotic rhetoric is only used to appeal to feelings in situations where
rational thought would find the selfsame leaders at fault.
3) No country in the world embodies the notions of justice, dignity and
freedom, but all use its rhetoric to accomplish the selfish aims of their
leaders.
4) All this talk about human rights and justice is only remembered when it
suits these latter, or when their citizens forcibly remind them of it.
5) This rarely extends beyond the borders of western democracies, anyway, or
even beyond the borders of their middle-class.
Again, this is only a 60% estimate of the French and British populations.
We've got our bigots and far-right thinkers like everyone else.
Obviously, Americans at large do not hold the same values, and that, more
than anything else, is probably the reason for many misunderstandings
between us (like the one that Americans are all far-right bigots ;). While
it always brings a smile to my face to read stuff like : "Please, have the
courage to admit that the U.S. is a shining beacon of freedom to billions
around the world.", I'm no longer surprised by it, nor do I hold a person
holding such views to be a far-right near-fascist.
We Europeans mainly believe this to be naive, but after all, we could be
wrong.
I believe, though, that Pirsig (being American) shared Platt sentiment about
the USA being an embodiment of the highest intellectual values. He has the
same "blind spot" about how the USA are not necessarily following the
highest moral good because the people who laid down the Constitution did.
The USA are primarily a social construct lead by people who, since they have
no knowledge of the MOQ, have no idea why patriotism (a social pattern) and
human rights (an intellectual pattern) cannot be the same thing. So by
extension, because the Constitution is founded on high moral ground,
defending the interests of the USA becomes defending the highest good, and
attacking it is, by definition, immoral. But let's state it here, this only
reduce the scope of human rights to the US population ! I guess we would
prefer to be a bit more inclusive, here.
I certainly expected anyone who has read the MOQ to come to the same
conclusions, but since Pirsig did not, I guess I cannot be too dismissive of
those who didn't.
Of course, our own politicians use the exact same rhetoric, but because of
the lower value accorded to social patterns, they aren't as successfull with
it. Simple appeal to greed or fear generally produces far better results.
:-/
I hope this will help all participants to understand one another better, and
avoid the accusations of Marxism or fascism.
Be good
Denis
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