Hi Denis,
We should use the clarity and knowledge gained through the MOQ and other
useful intellectual patterns to help us work on the motorcycle of ourselves
and our environment. Dogmatically defending one's positions leads to nothing
but stasis imo, and away from dynamic quality.
As for your story, you are correct that many or most Americans are proud of a
set of shared values. I have tried to emphasize this in past posts when the
debate began to hinge upon communal vs individual values. The difference in
distibution and belief of individualism is very different here than in most
cultures.
Patriotism has suffered in the US since Vietnam, but in general, the 20th
century disasters of Europe tended not to reduce American pride, but to
reinforce it. We watched as fascists and socialists led their nations into
the horrors of the World Wars, the holocaust and the mass murder of the
Soviets (not to mention Pol Pot or China). We eventually came in and saved
the day, proving, at least to ourselves. that our values are superior.
Patriotism is still alive and well in the US. (We are also more religious
than most Western countries)
DENIS:
But they certainly do not think that theirs is the best society, and are
only too conscious of the enormous problems and injustice around them.
ROG:
The belief that ours is the best is pretty much commonplace, except with the
far left. We do criticize ourselves openly and passionately and are very
disinterested in making ourselves better.
DENIS:
The European credo is something more in the line of :
We hold these truths to be universal and self-evident that :
1) ALL countries and governments only defend the best interests of their
politic and economic leaders.
2) Patriotic rhetoric is only used to appeal to feelings in situations where
rational thought would find the selfsame leaders at fault.
3) No country in the world embodies the notions of justice, dignity and
freedom, but all use its rhetoric to accomplish the selfish aims of their
leaders.
4) All this talk about human rights and justice is only remembered when it
suits these latter, or when their citizens forcibly remind them of it.
5) This rarely extends beyond the borders of western democracies, anyway, or
even beyond the borders of their middle-class.
ROG:
Here is my take on America's:
1) THE US government is built specifically to defend the freedom and property
of our citizens. Although our leaders are far from perfect or selfless, we
built a complex system of checks and balances and divisions of power that
range across time, space, power, interest etc to keep them as good as we
could ('cause we don't trust them, though nor do we trust unfetterred
democracy. US is a Republic).
2) Patriotism is aimed at reminding us of the values upon which our country
was built. The US Constitution is an intellectual attempt to build a social
system based upon enlightenment philosophical ideas (created in your country
but never properly implemented in our opinion)
3) Ours is far from perfect, but light years ahead of the competition (in
many American's opinion)
4) Our values are sometimes sacrificed in our stuggle for protection of
ourselves or the world. Many American's resent this type of action in
leaders and make their ire known. Many don't.
5) The US feels compelled to preach our values everywhere, and we pressure
our leaders to "do something" about abuses. Of course, since our primary
value is FREEDOM, it isn't something that can be forced on others ...by
definition.
DENIS:
Again, this is only a 60% estimate of the French and British populations.
We've got our bigots and far-right thinkers like everyone else.
ROG:
I would say the 60% rule applies here too and would be offset by leftists and
relativists. The extreme right here doesn't trust govt at all.
D:
Obviously, Americans at large do not hold the same values, and that, more
than anything else, is probably the reason for many misunderstandings
between us (like the one that Americans are all far-right bigots ;). While
it always brings a smile to my face to read stuff like : "Please, have the
courage to admit that the U.S. is a shining beacon of freedom to billions
around the world.", I'm no longer surprised by it, nor do I hold a person
holding such views to be a far-right near-fascist.
R:
This quote -- though a tad extreme -- is probably the conventional wisdom of
a big portion of Americans.
D:
We Europeans mainly believe this to be naive, but after all, we could be
wrong.
R:
We fear losing our freedom and becoming like the rest of the world. Really.
D:
I believe, though, that Pirsig (being American) shared Platt sentiment about
the USA being an embodiment of the highest intellectual values. He has the
same "blind spot" about how the USA are not necessarily following the
highest moral good because the people who laid down the Constitution did.
R:
We have screwed up lots of times, and our power amplifies the impacts a
thousand times over. We do good quite often too.
D:
The USA are primarily a social construct lead by people who, since they have
no knowledge of the MOQ, have no idea why patriotism (a social pattern) and
human rights (an intellectual pattern) cannot be the same thing.
R:
It is patriotism in the service of human rights. It is a really strange type
of communal passion for individualism. It is a social commitment to
intellectual values. America really is unique in this way.
D:
So by
extension, because the Constitution is founded on high moral ground,
defending the interests of the USA becomes defending the highest good, and
attacking it is, by definition, immoral. But let's state it here, this only
reduce the scope of human rights to the US population ! I guess we would
prefer to be a bit more inclusive, here.
I certainly expected anyone who has read the MOQ to come to the same
conclusions, but since Pirsig did not, I guess I cannot be too dismissive of
those who didn't.
R:
We criticize our nation. One of our values is actually to die to defend the
right to criticize. Freedom of speech and assembly.
Defending the constitution and defending every American action are two very
different things. We believe human rights and individualism and freedom are
human concepts, not solely American and therefore all inclusive.
D:
Of course, our own politicians use the exact same rhetoric, but because of
the lower value accorded to social patterns, they aren't as successfull with
it. Simple appeal to greed or fear generally produces far better results.
R:
Again, our social values are aimed at reinforcing and preserving the platform
for intellectual values to blossum. The beauty of the thing is awesome.
ROGER
PS -- I know that there are American leftists in this group that will
disagree with my views of America, but I am laying out my view of a
statistical tendency. The leftists are not the majority. I also do not
intend to address the onslaught of America bashing that my comments will
invariably produce.
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