Hi Roger,
It's been a long time... :)
> We should use the clarity and knowledge gained through the MOQ and other
> useful intellectual patterns to help us work on the motorcycle of
ourselves
> and our environment. Dogmatically defending one's positions leads to
nothing
> but stasis imo, and away from dynamic quality.
I perfectly agree. The MOQ is I think a useful tool to make necessary
distinctions in fields that SOM thinking has often ignored. Politics could
be one of those fields, but all too often social values are confused with
intellectual ones in a vain attempt to gain the "highest moral ground"
bonus...
Of course, the fact that Pirsig never had the time to develop the upper two
levels model isn't helping much... :(
>
> As for your story, you are correct that many or most Americans are proud
of a
> set of shared values. I have tried to emphasize this in past posts when
the
> debate began to hinge upon communal vs individual values. The difference
in
> distibution and belief of individualism is very different here than in
most
> cultures.
That was also my aim. I wanted to point to people participating in those
debates that European and American social values differ a lot, so as to give
each side a broader view of where the "opposition" came from. I should add
that I think both sides are somewhat extremists. European all too often
argue themselves into a corner, while Americans jump into the fray without
looking hard enough at their real motivations. A bit of temperance would be
needed on both sides.
>
> Patriotism has suffered in the US since Vietnam, but in general, the 20th
> century disasters of Europe tended not to reduce American pride, but to
> reinforce it. We watched as fascists and socialists led their nations
into
> the horrors of the World Wars, the holocaust and the mass murder of the
> Soviets (not to mention Pol Pot or China). We eventually came in and
saved
> the day, proving, at least to ourselves. that our values are superior.
And I am very grateful to the Americans for not living in a fascist country.
But I am also grateful to General De Gaulle for pushing you out when it
became clear that the American government took its "protector" role a bit
too seriously.
>
> Patriotism is still alive and well in the US. (We are also more religious
> than most Western countries)
Believe me, I know. Not easy being a mystic atheist when you are surrounded
by your devout family-in-law ! :)
>
> DENIS:
> But they certainly do not think that theirs is the best society, and are
> only too conscious of the enormous problems and injustice around them.
>
> ROG:
> The belief that ours is the best is pretty much commonplace, except with
the
> far left. We do criticize ourselves openly and passionately and are very
> disinterested in making ourselves better.
That's something I also recognize. Most of the contructive criticisms that
have been addressed to your country have been written by american
intellectuals. I'm only sad that many of them have been subsequently called
"communists moles" and often far less savory names. The american social
immune system often seems very harsh seen from this side of the Atlantic.
>
> DENIS:
> The European credo is something more in the line of :
[snip]
>
> ROG:
> Here is my take on America's:
>
> 1) THE US government is built specifically to defend the freedom and
property > of our citizens. Although our leaders are far from perfect or
selfless, we
> built a complex system of checks and balances and divisions of power that
> range across time, space, power, interest etc to keep them as good as we
> could ('cause we don't trust them, though nor do we trust unfetterred
> democracy. US is a Republic).
In fact, for us it often seems like the US is almost schizophrenic in its
love/hate relationship to its country. Sometimes it's the best place on
Earth, and then an FBI building goes up in flames and wackos stockpile
weapons in anticipation to the downfall of a corrupt regime ! :-/
> 2) Patriotism is aimed at reminding us of the values upon which our
country
> was built. The US Constitution is an intellectual attempt to build a
social
> system based upon enlightenment philosophical ideas (created in your
country
> but never properly implemented in our opinion)
France is in many ways a defective democracy, that's for sure. But quite
frankly I cannot think of a really effective one (except perhaps Holland,
and even that would be stretching it : too much organized crime here).
> 3) Ours is far from perfect, but light years ahead of the competition (in
> many American's opinion)
That, as you say, is an AMERICAN opinion. But I guess it's typical.
> 4) Our values are sometimes sacrificed in our stuggle for protection of
> ourselves or the world. Many American's resent this type of action in
> leaders and make their ire known. Many don't.
I've noticed it's a kind of division which often seems to follow a
North-South axis. A remnant of Civil War ? Northen Democrats against
Southern Republicans ?
> 5) The US feels compelled to preach our values everywhere, and we pressure
> our leaders to "do something" about abuses. Of course, since our primary
> value is FREEDOM, it isn't something that can be forced on others ...by
> definition.
Which, I think, is why foreign people resent you so much. We see a
dysfunctional society, ridden with crime, wanton violence and social
injustice which still insist on imposing its model everywhere... That's not
the best way to get yourself loved, no ? Imagine what the orderly Chinese
must think about it...
[snip]
>"Please, have the
> courage to admit that the U.S. is a shining beacon of freedom to billions
> around the world.", I'm no longer surprised by it, nor do I hold a person
> holding such views to be a far-right near-fascist.
>
> R:
> This quote -- though a tad extreme -- is probably the conventional wisdom
of
> a big portion of Americans.
My point. Still, I believe it can be traced back to the fact that Americans
are of mixed origins, and that building a stable society from so many
disparate ethnic sources required a STRONG social element of cohesion. Thus,
the emotional and moral appeal of the Constitution replaced the traditional
cultural ethnic identity with an intellectual and moral one. Still, many
people are blocked at the social stage and make the confusion I described in
my previous post. For them, the principles behind the Constitution need not
apply at anyone else but them. They still see the world through
nationalistic glasses and not intellectual ones. They prostitute the ideals
to the social level.
>
> D:
> We Europeans mainly believe this to be naive, but after all, we could be
> wrong.
>
> R:
> We fear losing our freedom and becoming like the rest of the world.
Really.
<joke>Despite what you might think</joke>, France is a democracy. :)
>
> D:
> I believe, though, that Pirsig (being American) shared Platt sentiment
about
> the USA being an embodiment of the highest intellectual values. He has the
> same "blind spot" about how the USA are not necessarily following the
> highest moral good because the people who laid down the Constitution did.
>
> R:
> We have screwed up lots of times, and our power amplifies the impacts a
> thousand times over. We do good quite often too.
I won't deny it. Americans are often at the forefront of many humanitarian
endeavors.
>
> D:
> The USA are primarily a social construct lead by people who, since they
have
> no knowledge of the MOQ, have no idea why patriotism (a social pattern)
and
> human rights (an intellectual pattern) cannot be the same thing.
>
> R:
> It is patriotism in the service of human rights. It is a really strange
type
> of communal passion for individualism. It is a social commitment to
> intellectual values. America really is unique in this way.
Sure, but see above. When a social pattern uses an intellectual one for its
own aims, only evil can result. Fortunately, this goes both ways and it also
creates a strong social support for human rights.
[]
>
> R:
> We criticize our nation. One of our values is actually to die to defend
the
> right to criticize. Freedom of speech and assembly.
>
> Defending the constitution and defending every American action are two
very
> different things. We believe human rights and individualism and freedom
are
> human concepts, not solely American and therefore all inclusive.
All too often, this hasn't been followed in the policies your government has
applied (which is also true of my government, BTW). But I believe that you
deceive yourself if you think that people are in general "all-inclusive".
Most of them are egocentric, the rest ethnocentric or nationalists, and only
the "precious few" do hold all-inclusive values. This is a pretty rare
achievement.
>
> D:
> Of course, our own politicians use the exact same rhetoric, but because of
> the lower value accorded to social patterns, they aren't as successfull
with
> it. Simple appeal to greed or fear generally produces far better results.
>
> R:
> Again, our social values are aimed at reinforcing and preserving the
platform
> for intellectual values to blossum. The beauty of the thing is awesome.
Its horror can unfortunately hold the very same adjective. Even though I'll
admit the author holds a biaised view, you should read "Necessary
Illusions", by Noam Chomsky, for some fresh data on the Nicaraguayan plight.
I wish France had someone like him to hold up the mirror for it.
>
> ROGER
> PS -- I know that there are American leftists in this group that will
> disagree with my views of America, but I am laying out my view of a
> statistical tendency. The leftists are not the majority. I also do not
> intend to address the onslaught of America bashing that my comments will
> invariably produce.
All countries and cultures have their good and bad sides. Striving to become
multi-cultural is the only way of escaping the pitfalls of the social level,
and gain a more inclusive view of both your society and others. As usual,
"the real cycle you're working on is a cycle called `youself'."
All the best
Denis
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