Bo and All,
Well I've been thinking about Intellectual giants for a while. I know alot
of people don't like the giant idea at all but I think Pirsig kept it in
there for a reason. You see, to me there are conflicts between giants on the
various levels. Something that I see as a conflict between two Intellectual
giants is the cold War. It was not like any other war in that it was not
purely over nation states, it was over ideals. It brought together countries
("social giants") like Britain and France and (west) Germany the US and many
others that we're never traditionally allied. It wasn't about countries per
se. It was bigger than that. It was about ideas. The unifying power of the
intellectual giant that rules Europe now is stronger than all the cultural
differences that lead to thousands of years of war in Europe's past. Who in
history would believe that Europe would be unified, not by conquest, but by
ideals? A single intellectual giant that unifies social giants. Would you
believe that after the history of war between Denmark, Sweden and Norway
that they are now brothers? Same with Canada and the US, we have had a long
history of war in our past, unified now by our ideals into "western
civilization".
So along those lines, Intellectual giants exist as well. With SOM and a
dash of personal preference ruling them all in the west. Even both sides of
the cold war were subservient to the SOM Intellectual Giant of truth and
mutually assured destruction.
Do you have an example of other "intellectual giants that make up
the Q-intellectual level of the MOQ"?
This is a VERY difficult question for me to answer. Which may make it
pragmatically false, because there is no way for me to tell the difference
between them and SOM, and me being only able to describe them in SOM. But
I'll give it a shot.
One thing that I found most interesting was reading this physics book
interpreting quantum physics through the eyes of (ancient?) Hindu
philosophy. And how Quantum physics makes just about as much sense in that
way of thinking as in SOM, maybe even more sense. The ancient Hindu way of
looking at the world was a little different, (from my SOM perspective) they
saw the objective world as a dream of the subject, not that we exist in the
objective world, but that we create it in our mind similar to a waking
dream. It was very interesting and in a way it clicks with my MOQ belief,
where dynamic quality is the cutting edge of reality. That being said, from
my perspective, the "objective world" is a creation of SOM, but doesn't
necessarily exist in the "intellectual giant" of ancient hindu philosophy,
but nonetheless, that system of thought should be part of the Q-intellect of
the MOQ. That intellectual giant isn't the MOQ either, it is consistent with
it, but Quality is not the focus. The MOQ is built on those two foundations.
A unifying giant if you will, the extension of both east and west.
As much as I hate to admit it, I find myself part of many layered giants,
social, intellectual, maybe even mystical. Even the brain cell that is
thinking this is part of the collective of cells that is me, and the
molecules in that cell are part of the collectivethat is the cell which is a
collective of atoms which is a collective of subatomic particles which is a
collective of chaostic dynamic forces beyond our vision. All the way up and
all the way down. The fractal beauty of it is amazing.
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of skutvik@online.no
Sent: December 18, 2001 4:20 AM
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: Re: MD Has Pirsig created a new disguise for SOM ?
ROB and All.
Forgive me for not noticing you evaluating the
SOLAQI idea.You said:
> The Intellectual giant idea is something that makes me think
> with regards to the MOQ.
Intellectual Giant? Hmmm. Pirsig speaks about a social giant in
LILA - a part I don't like particularly well because it makes social
quality sound sinister - not the least like a value, but OK, each Q-
level may be regarded as a "giant". Yes, Intellect is very much THE
GIANT of this era ....tyrant perhaps :-).
> Looking at the MOQ on an individual level it is a lot
> harder to test if the MOQ is transcendent to a new level, but as a
> giant, it might be easier to tell. It could be proven to be a
> "greater giant" if it unifies many intellectual patterns into one
> single "mystical" pattern.
And the Quality level another giant? OK. "Unifying many
intellectual patterns...."? IMO "unification" is the exquisite social
value like you say below.
> Similarly to how a social system unifies
> many people into one social pattern. I think by this definition, the
> SOLAQI definition of the MOQ still applies, although in order to
> test this, it would require other intellectual patterns to be seen
> as converging into it.
Right, the social value is that of unifying biological patterns,
however seeing Intellect as a "unification" of social pattern is a bit
harder and a movement beyond Intellect as ...convergence of
intellectual patterns? Well, I don't dismiss this approach out of
hand, but let's examine the way that Pirsig sees the level's
birth, namely that of a pattern of the parent level that - from the
position of being it topmost defender - "goes off on a purpose of its
own". To see the first life as a protector of inorganic value
requires a little stretch of imagination, but .. a purpose
of it's own ...sure. Social value's relationship with Biology is more
clear regarding the protective part and also the "own purpose"
aspect. Intellect vs Society is the eternal bone of contest of this
forum, but IMO it was no sudden introduction of "thinking" (mind)
rather seeking what's objectively TRUE in contrast to social
bigotry. And this rational giant has reigned ever since.
An aside: It's "existence" that have reached these level, each
individual fluctuates between them, focus isn't fixed on any level.
This is what makes some so furious because it sounds as if
Western man is of some higher development than individuals of
other cultures.
And now to the point. What would a development beyond Intellect
be like to meet the "protective and "own purpose" requirements?
> Eastern and Western metaphysics could be seen
> as converging here, but I, as an individual have no ability to judge
> this coming fromt he West.
Excellent point. I have said it before that the MoQ is an East-West
bridge - erected from the West Bank. Before Pirsig all efforts had
been from the Eastern side and no-one has been any wiser. In its
time I was a fan of Alan Watts ("The Way of Zen") but only with
Pirsig did I understand what Watts tried to say.
> Althouth SOM would only be one of the
> intellectual giants that make up the Q-intellect level of the MOQ,
> the SOM would still define the Q-intellect, for a westerner.
Do you have an example of other "intellectual giants that make up
the Q-intellectual level of the MOQ"?
> Just a thought,
A very significant one Rob.
Bo
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