>===== Original Message From moq_discuss@moq.org =====
>
Hi Angus,
An important difference is that an adult is able to notice this ability of the
three year-old and the three-year old can not notice it in themselves. This
fourth level ability allows you to see the lower level ability just as a fifth
level would allow you to be more aware of the fourth level because you are no
longer "stuck" in it. I am not sure that it is logic that is separating the
adult and child. According to Piaget the child is thinking concretely and the
adult is thinking abstractly. (it is thought that the frontal lobe which is
the area that is last to develop and first to go is responsible for abstract
thinking) Concrete and abtract are both logical to a degree.
As for the three year old saying "daddy" doesn't mean that it is not object
oriented. As when Wittgenstein challenged people to come up with a definition
of game that would encompass all games. In trying to do this you do a
comparison process that doesn't have to be value based. It can be physical
similarity. When the three year old first sees a zebra and calls it a horse
it is not a value comparison it just looks like a horse.
Perhaps this three year old called you daddy because of your physically
similarity to that adult male.
As when many humans anthromorphize animal behavior I think you are granting
way too much "logic" to your three year old thinking. The child is thinking
logically but not abstractly. So I do not think this is any kind of
regression just each level is a "fine tuning of logic"
Hi Rob,
>
>I'll throw my hat in the ring again on this issue. My
>position is on the edge: I agree with everything that
>Denis says as he explains what the book says well.
>It's funny: the more frustrated Denis gets the more
>clear are his posts. I SENSE the meaning that Bo and
>you are getting at, and it is legitimate but difficult
>to discuss because it uses dynamic quality in its
>expression. I think Denis senses it too. Your position
>is hard to express in language. Wittgenstein had the
>same problem. Instead of inventing new grammar like I
>have tried ( [dq][/dq] etc.) he focussed on how
>language was used, how it shows, how it expresses. So
>it seems as you said the MOQ depends on "how it is
>used." It depends on "vision." As Wittgenstein said,
>"look don't think." It's useful to think of a direct
>correlation between vision-logic and late Wittgenstein
>(vision) and early Wittgenstein (logic). Or Bo and Rob
>is to vision as Denis is to logic. And I think all
>three of you are open to the "fusion" of the two.
>
>But I have one question. I know this kid, Drew, and he
>is about 4. I often visit him and play. We play mostly
>hunt the bad guy, and I like to joke with myself by
>calling the bad guy "hermeneutic." Sometimes when we
>are having a good time he calls me "daddy". He
>corrects himself quickly and calls me by my real name.
>It's happened several times. I've noticed this and
>have made a conclusion. He calls me "daddy" because to
>him I am a "pattern of values" that reminds him of
>"daddy". I am not a separate object. I am a quality at
>times to him that he thinks of the thing called
>"daddy." It doesn't matter to him that I am not
>"daddy" it's the pattern of values that gets him. Also
>when we hunt for "hermeneutic" there is no doubt that
>there is a thing to hunt for. Why? The "pattern of
>values" is established and whether there is an object
>or no object makes no difference. So my question is,
>if an un-SOM Quality is the "higher" state
>EVOLUTIONARILY, WHY DID HUMANS DEVELOP LOGIC IN THE
>FIRST PLACE? It seems we have "vision" as a kid, lose
>it to "logic," and spend the rest of our life finding
>vision again. A fifth level of vision-logic would be
>wrong BECAUSE it would be DEVOLVING back to when we
>were 3. It's a contradiction against Pirsig's theme of
>EVOLUTION TOWARDS HIGHER QUALITY.
>
>Angus
>
>
>
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