From: Rog
To: Soj
To be spoken aloud in the tone of Jamie Lee Curtis to Kevin Kline in the
movie "A Fish Called Wanda."
ROG:
You are confusing property rights with property confiscation. You start by
ranting against the latter, then when I push back you presto-chango divert
the conversation to the former. Which would you like to discuss? I can show
that property rights are high quality and that confiscation is low quality,
and frequently that no rights is a method of confiscation for that matter.
Get some rest and let me know.
So, your two examples of high quality societies are the Spanish Inquisition
and Nazi Germany? Do you see how disturbed this is? Do you have no knowledge
of what happenned to these two nations as a result of these horrible ideas?
(Sorry to break it to you, but they failed!)
If your argument is that modern societies "increase power by any means " and
by "power" you mean ability to thrive in its environment, I hope you are
right. If by power you mean screw over one's neighbors even if it causes
everyone to go to hell then you are only providing the failed ideas of
Hitler, Stalin, Torqueamada, Napolean and the other cancers upon society.
Your view of quality societies (Nazi Germany, Iraq, Russia, Spanish
Inquisition, etc) is a list of failures -- the absolute dregs!. How can you
use these as the examples of modern ills? Consider US's relationship to
Canada. The European Economic Union today. The Uniting of independent and
unruly states in the 18th century into a United States. etc etc.
You seem to hate everything non-Hopi, to define quality by mistakes and to
compare everything to bodily waste. (references available upon request) Why
is this?
Complex organizations have complex emergent behavior that often times shows
nobody at the tiller. (consider ant colonies) This doesn't always make it bad.
Sorry, but I find quality in roads and highways. I appreciate rules of
safety and enforcement officers. Are you really blind to this quality? (tell
me the truth, did you just get a ticket?)
"Kill or be killed" is not a popular high quality social pattern. Societies
power comes from suppressing dumb biological "kill or be killed" survival --
first at the individual and then in more advanced cultures at the state
level. Ever heard of "if you wash my hand I will wash yours?" or "2+2 =5?"
Your comparison of death by traffic accident to death by terrorism runs flat.
In both cases societies can and should work to protect themselves from the
culprit -- internal or external. This makes no point of the evil power of
modern societies, and you already gave your thoughts on road safety.
Protecting citizens and protecting culture are good things ...no?
Are you familiar with the huge improvement gained from our war on traffic
fatalities? Read up on it. It is impressive. We didn't even have to shoot
Henry Ford.
Your argument that only modern societies harm their environment or drive
species to extinction is wrong. Ever heard of Easter Island? Ever heard of
the Anastazi Indians? Are you aware of the major extinctions which occurred
in Australia, Madagascar and YES even in America due to the ancestors of your
beloved Hopi's? Read up! I could go on and on, but the truth is you have
been fooled into believing that Indigenous people were all wise, good and at
peace with nature etc etc. This is politically correct propaganda.
It is not true that modern high Quality societies tout clear-cutting or
extermination. (And don't give me some disfunctional, ineffective
nation-state like Bangladesh, Iraq, or Afghanistan) Ever heard of
Greenpeace? It is part of OUR CULTURE. Ever heard of laws against killing
wolves? These are part of our culture. Oh that's right, laws are bad!
You are right that some IC's avoided destroying their environment and were
GOOD because of it. Some didn't. Same with modern cultures. The point is
that living in harmony is good and that goes for today more than ever.
Right? Try to contribute to the solution rather than touting "Hopi's are
good! " The truth is the Hopi's are gone! We need real solutions, not fairy
tales.
Would you please look up the definition of genocide? Your argument that
wolves don't commit genocide is as sound as saying there is no such thing as
a sex-crazed eunuch.
BTW, are you familiar with what the noble, indiginous people of Europe are
believed to have done to Neanderthals?
In addition, I am sorry to break it to you, but no reasonable, hi quality
person or modern society believes in genocide or in hunting snakes all day
either.
Despite your allegations, I do not believe modern hi quality societies
believe "Diversity is the enemy and must be killed or else it will kill us."
And defending against terrorism is not proof that it is true. Granted these
views are true of Fundamentalist regimes and France, but this just proves my
point. Practitioners of this view are low quality. They were then and they
are now. Diversity and harmony with nature are good things.
You ask "Where did we get this idea? (to kill diversity)" I am a product of
modern society and I don't believe it. You are a part of modern society and
you don't believe it. I know where we got it! Maybe you just made it up?
I suggest you quit believing the PC BS that Indiginous Culture = good and You
and your culture = bad. This is very bad intellectual pattern based upon
self-hating, anti-rational, post modernist thought. It will destroy you if
you do not use the MOQ or some other common sense philosophy to free your
mind. It is not too late.
Your argument that "laws are not special because they are written, they are
special because they are full of shit", seems fairly weak to me. You come
across as a self-loathing nihilist.
Why the attack on "bad laws?" Nobody is defending any bad laws. Why are you
making this point? There are lots of rules and laws that are good and
necessary and followable too. Right? Try REAL hard to find one...go
on.....it'll do you good. (you really did get a speeding ticket recently
huh?)
Sorry, as populations grow and cultures become more complex your *can't we
all just get along* without laws/regulations/values/police concept breaks
down and fails.
You are right that 6 billion people is a problem, You are wrong that to
follow the Hopi's is a solution.
Finally, and you may want to sit down for this one, it is not true that
children come from hamburgers. They come from reproduction...dare I say
it...SEX. (and no, not from sex with hamburger either) Please share the news
with the famous Mr Quinn.
In the midst of your space-alien hamburger reproduction analogy, you 'forgot'
to address my point that overpopulation IS NO LONGER OCCURRING in the dreaded
modern cultures. Only in IC's recently borrowing from our standard of
living. And you seem to miss my point that if we can solve it, they can too.
And all this without nihilism or the Hopi rain dance.
Rog
PS -- This entire argument just shows the folly of arguing with someone that
openly and repeatedly rejects rationality and education. Soj, you are
totally and completely a model of your own values.
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