SKUTVIK:
Roger and I and a few other are from the beginning of this discussion and
the map problem is a "worm" from a can that we seem unable to close.
ROSS:
Yes I thought as much.
The MoQ, as I understand it, is a map in it's description and the territory
in it's operation. All we're talking about here is like the difference
between the concept "apple" and some apples. I know some people insist they
don't undestand the difference, but I say they do, they just don't know it!
BTW I don't mean to imply that there's some Aristotelian "world of ideas". I
think all abstract concepts are actually embodied concepts, that is to say
they are contained in words on a page, speech patterns or synaptic pathways.
What we have, as Roger said, is a self-referential reality.
SKUTVIK:
Can such a "as we discuss it here different from the real thing" distinction
be made? This is the position of Denis,
ROSS:
Yes :-)
SKUTVIK:
but if all is words then LANGUAGE is the "Urprizip", or, if maps, then MAPS
are the groundstuff and the respective metaphysics are due.
ROSS:
No, all is not words - our conversation is words. The MoQ, as it _operates_
works in the same way if we are discussing bananas, or automobiles, or even
SOM as it does when we are discussing the MoQ. Or indeed if we are playing
basketball and not discussing anything at all.
I hesitate to use the word "subject" here, but as far as I can see, a
discussion can have a subject without us having to build our metaphysics
around the concept. (And we don't need to build our metaphysics around the
concept of "discussion" just because we are having one).
As I said before, and as Roger pointed out, the important concept here is
that reality can be self-referential. That is to say, we can make a map of
it, or a theory as to how it works, from within it.
SKUTVIK:
Sorry for coming so strongly on about this Ross, I have run myself into a
rut here.
ROSS:
Hmm. I do appreciate your input. I hope you're not offended if I say that
AFAIAC it's definitely your rut, not mine!
[BTW, I'll take your other comments and reply to them separately, because
elsewhere in your post you make some very valid points which I don't
disagree with! Thanks for your input ]
Ross.
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