Hi Magnus:
> Well, I became a twin father this past May so I've been able to keep myself
> occupied with other matters. :)
Congratulations. No wonder we haven't heard from you for a while.
> > This implies that bodily organs form a society. Perhaps they do in the
> > broadest sense of the term, but not in Pirsig's sense because society as
> > used in the MOQ primarily refers to human society. I believe in the past
> > you have pointed out one or two exceptions where Pirsig uses the term in
> > its broad sense, but I dare say that the majority of MOQites will agree
> > with me that Pirsig's "social level" does NOT refer to two atoms, or a
> > dozen molecules, or a thousand ants or a gaggle of geese, but rather a
> > collection of human beings. The battle between society and intellect that
> > Pirsig spends so much time on doesn't make sense if society is considered
> > any situation where two or three entities of any kind, such as protons,
> > come together as you seem to insist on when using the word.
>
> Why not? I don't take away the social status of human societies, the battle
> stays just the same either way.
I don't see freedom of speech, trial by jury, freedom of religion and
other intellectual victories over society applying to swarms of bees or
herds of gazelles. Why add irrelevant groups to the MOQ?
> Anyway, I still think everyone who restrict societies to only human
> societies makes a bad mistake, Pirsig or not. I've said many times that the
> MoQ is supposed to be a metaphysics. As such, you must be able to explain
> not only our daily life, but also the not so daily events plus all possible
> future events. If society is restricted to only humans we are stuck with
> another MoM, the Metaphysics of Mankind.
>
> Ok, we might extend the society term to include alien intelligence the day
> we realize that they exist. This is IMO a highly probable future and a
> metaphysics shouldn't rule it out.
>
> The next step on this road of more or less probable future events happens
> when we encounter an alien race consisting of mechanical intelligent
> robots. What now?
>
> Is it probable? Perhaps not.
> Is it impossible? Hardly.
> Should a metaphysics forbid it? My ass!
Nothing in the MOQ forbids an encounter with an alien race consisting
of intelligent robots. I doubt if they will exhibit Victorian social
sensibilities or be much concerned with our modern sexual mores.
The question will be, "Do they experience?" No metaphysics, not even
the MOQ, can answer that question within a comfortable zone of
certainty. If you see a way to possibly construct such a system, please
let us know. I don't think extending the MOQ social level to sub-atomic
particles holds much promise along those lines. But, I could be wrong.
> Don't worry, it does indeed mean that lower levels are included in higher.
> Level one extends in one direction making one level patterns into lines.
> Level two extends in 90 degrees to the first, so a level two pattern is a
> plane. Level three extends in 90 degrees to the first two, so a level three
> pattern is a cube. Level four extends in 90 degrees to the first three,
> (impossible in our daily 3-dimensional space but a metaphysics is not
> restricted by that), making a level four pattern into a so called
> super-cube.
>
> The difference between the dimensional model and concentric circles might
> be academical, but I think the dimensional approach captures the
> description of a level better. A higher level is dependent on lower, yet
> it's a completely different beast.
Now that you've explained your model further, I can picture it and it
makes sense. It loses a bit of the levels idea but nicely captures the
concept of evolutionary expansion in both width and depth.
> Sure, such general conclusions about reality are quite important to reach.
> But they are quite useless if you want to make predictions about reality.
> Predictions require a much more elaborated and specific system. The more we
> are able to specify the MoQ, the better predictions are possible.
Ah, is that what a metaphysics is supposed to do--make predictions? I
really never thought of it that way. Now that I do think about it, you may
be right. Still, doesn't the ability to make predictions presume a
deterministic reality? And doesn't the MOQ say that DQ is anything but
deterministic? That it comes as surprise? Like twins?
Is it your goal to take the surprise element out of DQ? Or reduce it? An
interesting challenge, Magnus. Just so you know, I'm open to the idea.
Platt
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