Dear John B. (with an aside to 3WD),
Time to return to your postings of 15/11 18:58 +1000 and 17/11
14:06 +1000. First a summary:
I proposed 30/10 15:28 +0100 'to integrate Wilber's work in
Pirsig's work ... to follow up your suggestion of 15/6 15:33
+1000 to relate to Pirsig Wilber/Whiteyead's approach to "first
look to the higher levels for the general principles of
existence, and then, by subtraction, ... see how far down the
hierarchy they extend".'
I first concentrated on 'consciousness' (central in Wilber's
work) and experiencing quality (central in Pirsig's work) to see
how far down the hierarchy they extend. You wrote 'Quality has no
meaning except as it refers to an individual organism' in
'Quality with a human face' and contrasted that with Pirsig who
uses Quality all the way down the level hierarchy. Wilber
ascribes 'consciousness' to all types of 'individual holons'
and -in the form of distributed or intersubjective consciousness-
to all types of 'social holons' all the way down his level
hierarchy.
We agreed to speak of interiority, depth or prehension rather
than consciousness at the lower levels (you proposed to do so
31/10 11:58 +1000, I agreed 13/11 15:02 +0100).
You stress 31/10 11:58 +1000 Wilber's distinction between
individual and social holons as a means of criticising Pirsig's
understanding of (some) social patterns of value as 'Giants'.
I suggest 13/11 15:02 +0100 'a gliding scale between individual
and social holons'. People CAN to some extent experience
collective/intersubjective consciousness!
As we seemed to agree on a metaphysics that I summarized 27/11
14:19 +0100 as 'we experience (epistemology) quality (ontology)
and seek Meaning (meta-ethics)', we can drop the subject of
Wilber's metaphysics. You tried 31/10 11:58 +1000 to split some
hairs with your concern that my meta-ethics might be 'too
oriented to the social realm, and the bigger stories of the
groups we identify with'. I hope my 13/11 15:02 +0100 counter
satisfied you: 'The story of "our" life CAN be understood as a
part of the bigger stories of the groups we identify with, but
doesn't have to be. If not, you are a "culture of one" or a
"religion of one" (like
Lila, see "Lila" ch.30). It is oriented rather to the
intellectual realm' which is only natural for a would-be
intellectual pattern of values lie a MoQ is.
At the end of my 30/10 15:28 +0100 post I stated that 'the
arbitrariness of the number of levels and the large number ... is
a weakness in Wilber's thinking. For me is essential Pirsig's
idea that a level is only a separate level if it constitutes a
static latch for Dynamic Quality'. I suggested to apply the
"levels" Wilber distinguishes 'as different types of stories
that constitute/give Meaning'.
In your 31/10 11:58 +1000 reply you 'argue [defending Wilber]
that the mark of a change of level is the change in what ...
counts as quality'. I state 13/11 15:02 +0100 that 'Wilber's
criteria [for distinguishing differnt levels] can't be very
strong if he distinguishes different numbers of levels in his
different books' and ask you to look them up.
The 8 tenets you paraphrase in your 15/11 18:58 +1000 posting as
Wilber's way of discriminating levels refer to objective reality
and a 'holarchy' of holons. When I was comparing Wilber's and
Pirsig's levels, I was thinking more of Wilber's subjective and
intersubjective levels: his
.../symbol/concept/formop/vision-logic/... and
.../magic/mythic/rational/centauric/... sequences. Wilber seems
to have a whole lot of different level-sequences... (integrated
from other authors). A way in which he tries to integrate them is
by means of 'his' quadrant-model. (left/right =
subjective/objective, up/down = singulare/plural)
3WD sent me 13/11 his suggestion for integrating Wilber and
Pirsig using this quadrant-model (an Acrobat Reader file with a
graph). You can find it at
www.antenna.nl/wim.nusselder/moq/wilbermoq.pdf . I hope 3WD
doesn't mind me making it available this way.
I am wondering if it wouldn't be better to see Wilber's
level-sequences as sub-divisions of Pirsig's levels. Couldn't the
quadrants be equated with MoQ-levels: upper-right with inorganic,
down-right with biological, down-left with social and upper-left
with intellectual? 3WD's account of these sequences may need some
adaptation, but given the variety in Wilber's level-sequences in
different books it should not be impossible...
With friendly greetings,
Wim
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