Hi Rog,
"It's sometimes argued that there's no real progress; that a civilisation
that kills multitudes in mass warfare, that polluted the land and oceans
with every larger quantities of debris, that destroys the dignity of
individuals by subjecting them to a forced mechanized existence can hardly
be called an advance over the simpler hunting and gathering and agricultural
existence of prehistoric times. But this argument, though romantically
appealing, doesn't hold up. The primitive tribes permitted far less
individual freedom than does modern society. Ancient wars were committed
with far less moral justification than modern ones. A technology that
produces debris can find, and is finding, ways of disposing of it without
ecological upset. And the schoolbook pictures of primitive man sometimes
omit some of the detractions of his primitive life - the pain, the disease,
famine, the bare hard labour needed just to stay alive. From that agony of
bare existence to modern life can be soberly described only as upward
progress...."
(p 121 in my copy of ZMM)
I agreed with that when I first read it, and I still agree with it now.
Sam
----- Original Message -----
From: <RISKYBIZ9@aol.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 2:20 PM
Subject: MD Is Society Making Progress?
> To: Andy and anyone interested
> From: Rog
>
> Is society making progress? What are your thoughts?
>
> Andy,
> You accuse me of being overly optimistic on social progress. Let me state
my
> position, while trying to avoid isolated anecdotes. In all cases, I will
> compare today's best social quality against other examples or eras, rather
> than against an absolute. My argument is that it is getting better, not
that
> it is good enough.
> Do you agree with the following social improvements?
>
> Developed nations become interrelated and mutually dependent and are less
> likely to go to war with each other (democracies are very, very unlikely
to
> wage war).
>
> Developed nations support more people to a higher standard of living than
> ever previously possible. They provide better equality of opportunity,
> better education, better health, better lifespan, better variety of
> entertainment/experience/freedom and a better standard of living.
>
> Developed societies are more capable of sustaining their necessary
resources
> than previous eras. Developed nations face no shortage of energy. There
are
> lots of alternatives, and as technology advances, the alternatives expand
and
> the price tends to drop. Other resources are either renewable (if managed
> well) or if limited, they are substitutable, recyclable, or also benefit
from
> improved technology.
>
> Developed nations produce less environmental damage (to biodiversity,
> forests, water/air quality,etc) per person than did previous generations
or
> than do less developed nations. Developed nations are learning to find
> balance with their environment, and they are wealthy and enlightened
enough
> to do something to ensure this occurs. The glaring unsolved problem is
> hypothetical global warming. I believe the solution here is obvious
though
> (invest in technology to quickly shift to clean, non-greenhouse-causing
> energy sources, and even more importantly, to quit reproducing like
> rabbits!).
>
> Less developed countries have also gained more in the last 50 years than
in
> the prior 500. They have made big improvements in education, literacy,
> elimination of slavery, enhanced freedom for women and minorities,
enhanced
> income, improved health, medical care, nutrition, lifespan and child
> mortality, etc. In comparison to the advanced societies or to any ideal,
they
> have a long way to go though.
>
> I believe social governmental structure has improved over prior eras.
> Democracies are imperfect, but remarkably successful considering. They
are
> better so far than other forms of government (at ensuring social quality).
>
> Developed countries spend less of a share of their GDP (wealth, resources,
> what-have-you) on defense than have previous eras. I believe armaments,
> defense and attention to survival were much more significant in feudal
Europe
> or primitive New Guinea, for example, than in modern Europe.
>
> I believe people are less likely to die via murder or warfare in
developed,
> democratic countries than in past eras of history (some problems still
come
> from undeveloped countries and undeveloped but technologically-enhanced,
> centralized-command governments)
>
> I believe that developed nations can sustain themselves without having to
> exploit less developed cultures. They do not need to steal, enslave etc
> others to produce their wealth. (In fact, I believe exploitation is
> unsupportable and counterproductiveover the long term -- but this is REAL
> debatable).
>
> Finally, developed societies have progressed in the fields of science and
> technology and related fields of knowledge. They have created the
> intellectual level.
>
> IN CONCLUSION:
> I see incredible social progress over recorded history, and I see it
> progressing faster over time. I don't see progress as uninterrupted or
> inevitable though. Also, I see where progress leads to new problems. The
> biggest current problem is an outcome of our greatest success -- namely
our
> success at improving nutrition, medical care, lifespan and reducing child
> mortality. We fixed the biological problem of *death* without
compensating
> by lowering birth rates. This is leading to the overtaxing of the earth
and
> her resources. The main solution is of course controlled growth (fewer
kids),
> and this can happen lots of ways (and tends to occur spontaneously in
> developed societies -- probably due to female freedom). The secondary
> solution is continued technological progress to learn how to get more out
of
> less.
>
> It is odd to view the absence of death as a *problem,* but it is in some
> ways. The solution needs to embrace empathy for all men and cultures
though
> (as well as for the planet and our intellectual progress).
>
> Where do you agree/disagree?
>
> Risky Rog
>
>
>
> MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
> Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
> MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
>
> To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
> http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
>
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:01:47 BST