Hi Andrea, Clay, Erin and Angus,
First of all, Clay, finding balance in life is indeed important. But let
me say that by using the term 'subject object blues' I don't mean that
I'm in a bluesy state of mind or something, because of my problem with
solipsism. Rather, I see it as an interesting intellectual problem.
Intellectual blues ain't so bad.
Angus, you were right in pointing out that I confused DQ with Quality;
Experience or Quality is indeed composed of DQ and SQ's (I hope I did
better below!). Incidentally, when riding my bike (non-motor!) outside I
realized that the term 'static quality' is not that clear to me at all,
although I use the term relatively frequently here. I mean, mathematical
objects seem to me the ultimate static qualities. But what are exactly
the static qualities in our daily experience? A word can be quite
ambigue sometimes, although it is a static object when you write it
down. But because it can be ambigue, it is also dynamic. I won't give it
further thought here, because this thread's title is about something
completely different, but maybe it's a good subject for another
thread...
Andrea, intellectually you made the most sense to me. You seem to have a
clear understanding of the matter. You wrote:
> as I see it:
>
> DQ is One, static patterns are many.
>
> A static pattern is one of many simply because it is a pattern, hence
> different and distinct from another pattern. Static patterns belong to
> space
> and time and have boundaries, and they are plural!
>
> Recall that, of course, when Pirsig says that Quality is experience,
> this is
> not the same thing as when you think of *your* experience (sensations,
> memories, etc.). It is the pure experience that happens in the void
> before
> the *you* even comes into play. You are a static pattern (or
> collection or
> system thereof, whatever the mainstream MOQ suggests) and process this
> pure
> experience in your own way, in the form of (subjective) static
> patterns.
Yes, my THINKING functions with static patterns, and are indeed
subjective with a subject-object point of view. But let me explain what
I mean by 'Islands of experience'. What is Pure experience or pure DQ
before the static, intellectual splits? It can be the experience of pain
when sitting on a bbq. Or the feeling of the wind in your face. Or
hearing a melody. If DQ is one, how can you explain that? What I meant
by 'islands of experience' are these DQ's before the intellectual
splits, of which the subject-object-split is the most fundamental. But
it's true that in this DQ-experience there's no such awareness between
*your* and *my* DQ. Maybe you can indeed say 'you' and 'me' don't exist
when 'you' feel the wind in 'your' face.
But maybe you're right, and is DQ one. But that means DQ must be
something transcendental in the (pure?) experience. Otherwise, how can
it be the same Ground we all share?
I gave my problem with your input (and the other's) some afterthought,
and came to realize solipsism is indeed only a problem when you're
unaware of the non-absolute reality of subject and object. The
philosophy of solipsism is born when you realize that the reality of
other minds is secundary, because you have to INFER it intellectually;
you cannot know another's experience yourself, you can only assume other
selves are out there. But the joke is, when you realize that dividing
experience in subject and object is an assumption as well, the MOQ,
which encompasses SOM, tells us that the assumption of other selves is
equivalent with it, and therefore solipsism is avoided *within* a SOM!
You can be a subject seeing an object but intellectually know you're
making a fundamental split in pure experience. The split between the
self and others is just another powerful and useful thing to do when
trying to 'survive' and remain sane in this world.
Andrea:
> I think Pirsig (as well as those trained in
> Zazen-whatever, to
> use your words) postulate the "existence" of an "universal" or
> "fundamental"
> or "pure" experience that isn't related to the self and actually comes
> before the self itself... This pure experience thus exists before any
> "island of experience".
So you hold that pure experience is something transcendental?
Thanks for the discussion so far. Greetings, Patrick.
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