Dear David B.,
Maybe our misunderstanding about how to 'carefully examine the social level'
is best exemplified with what you wrote 3/3 12:31 -0700:
'Grasping the enormity and complexity of [the battle between social and
intellectual values] requires a careful examination of what we're leaving
behind. And that the social level is rich enough to be the parent of both
SOM and the MOQ.'
and
'SOM can be traced back to social level values contained in the mythos'.
I don't think the mythos contains any social values. It contains only
primitive intellectual values.
This idea may not be entirely consistent with what Pirsig writes, but is (I
think) a logical conclusion from some things he writes:
'In cultures without books ritual seems to be a public library for teaching
the young and preserving common values and information. These rituals may be
the connecting link between the social and intellectual levels of evolution.
One can imagine primitive song-rituals and dance-rituals associated with
certain cosmology stories, myths, which generated the first primitive
religions. From these the first intellectual truths could have been derived.
If ritual always comes first and intellectual principles always come later,
then ritual cannot always be a decadent corruption of intellect. Their
sequence in history suggests that principles emerge from ritual, not the
other way around.' ('Lila' ch.30, in your copy p. 387)
historically: social values > rituals > myths/cosmology stories/primitive
religions > intellectual truths
If rituals are the link between the social and intellectual levels, they can
be understood BOTH as social patterns of values (habits/practices that are
passed on because they have proven their value) AND as intellectual patterns
of values (a public library containing common values and information). The
mythos originates from the intellectual aspect of rituals, from the stories
& myths that are associated (by primitive intellect) with them.
So I would say:
'Primitive intellectual patterns of values are rich enough to be the parent
of both SOM and the MOQ.'
and
'SOM can be traced back to primitive intellectual values contained in the
mythos.'
Going back to times before the birth of the intellectual level means we have
to go on material remains (skeletons, artefacts, traces of burning) and
MODEL (not guess about) a way of human life that could have created these
WITHOUT ideas (intellectual patterns of values). If we want to clarify the
nature of the social level, that is what we have to do, I think. If we do
so, we will have to conclude that the social values we find cannot possibly
'battle intellectual values'. They are too different. The (on-going) battle
you (and Pirsig, inconsistently) describe as a 'battle between social and
intellectual values' is in my opinion a battle between higher and lower
quality intellectual values among themselves.
With friendly greetings,
Wim
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:01:56 BST