John B and y'all:
First, let me apologized if I was rude in trying to be pithy with that whole
"eat peyote and then return to us and eat some words" thing.
I don't really disagree with the distinctions you make here, John. The
creative and revolutionary contrarian types are examples of this "a limited
overcoming of this boundry". And this lesser kind of Dynamic state is quite
worthy. The experiences that "rip your head off" are clearly related to
this, and I suspect they are often the valuable residue a the full blown
mystical experience. In any case, I'd refer you again to the descriptions of
the peyote experience that Pirsig offers. This is the unsubtle experience I
was refering to. And it is this full blown version that can't be sustained.
With that in mind, perhaps the claim that one can overdo the Dynamic seems a
little less perposterous. At least I hope so.
That's all,
DMB
All that follows was written by John B.....
I have been reflecting on your statement , David, "that if you ever had a
mystical experience, you would certainly know it. There would be no doubt in
your mind. There's nothing subtle about it. Its not about moonlit scenes or
long walks on the
beach. Its the kind of thing that rips your head off."
While I acknowledge that such experiences do occur, and am guilty myself of
characterizing the 'mystic' as "experiences that are not explicable in terms
of the generally accepted scientific worldview", I want to challenge this
view of mysticism, because it can so easily pollute a more general
appreciation of mysticism. You say "Without any kind of personal mystical
experience... well, the MOQ won't exactly sing for you." I suspect this is
true. If, though, we confine our understanding of personal mystical
experience to "the kind of thing that rips your head off", as you put it,
then we have missed the point. The core of mysticism, as is evident from the
remarks of so many mystics, is the loss of the boundary that normally occurs
in early development, between the self and the world, through a
reintegration with what is. Hameed Ali points out that normal creativity and
spontaneity, and even our capacity for enjoyment, are a limited overcoming
of this boundary which occurs to most of us from time to time. He says "The
capacity for enjoyment, creativity, spontaneity and transcendence comes from
the self's spiritual nature, its essential presence, for it is this presence
that is totally free and intrinsically spontaneous, and transcendence is
nothing but fully experiencing this fact." (The Point of Existence, p503)
You say mystic experience is "nothing subtle". In my experience this is
exactly the reverse of the truth. The path to transcendence is all about
subtlety, and the word 'subtle' is constantly used in the mystic literature.
Of course some experiences are far from subtle, and in some traditions
(particularly some of the Indian ones) these are given some prominance,
though as I read them they are seen as indicators of having reached certain
stages and not as essential to the ultimate goal of non-dual experience. The
path to self-realization may include dramatic experiences, but it
fundamentally is a via negativa, an undoing of the egoic self that formed in
childhood, and while this process may be painful or exhilarating at times,
the ultimate goal is a state that is totally ordinary, as was recognised by
some of the founders of Zen.
With reference to your general post on the 'light' you said, "Eyes were
involved, but I'm pretty sure they were not the cause or the reason for it.
To think otherwise is merely materialistic reductionism." I totally agree
with you here. But when you say "Sure, one can overdo the dynamic. Mystics
who remained in a mystical state too long would simply die", I would ask for
your evidence. Please read "The Dazzling Dark" by John Wren-Lewis, available
on the internet, before making such preposterous statements.
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