In a message dated 3/15/02 9:26:59 PM GMT Standard Time, pholden@sc.rr.com
writes:
<< Subj: Re: MD Is Society Progressing?
Date: 3/15/02 9:26:59 PM GMT Standard Time
From: pholden@sc.rr.com (Platt Holden)
Sender: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
Reply-to: moq_discuss@moq.org
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Dear Platt,
I do not wish to waste your time.
If you feel this thread is too old hat then please feel to disappoint me.
Hi Squonk:
>I am
> talking about freedom of the individual within society; primarily the
> abstract concept of human rights - which is an intellectual pattern of
> value. To suggest that individual 'persons' are more valuable than society
> is to confuse intellectual values with our status as cultural entities.
Our status as intellectual entities is at a higher level than our status as
cultural entities, thus more moral, more valuable.
Intellectual values are less particular and more universal?
That is to say they have an implicit order that transcends individual
identity.
If DQ is undifferentiated, and the telos of evolution is towards the
undifferentiated, then any insistence upon identity is a move away from that
which is best?
The 'self' is a narrative; a life history, a string of perceptions.
The real self could better be identified with that aspect of us that is more
universal, undifferentiated and prior to conceptualised, discursive
interpretations of something static and individual?
> > So, rather than denying individual rights, we may better recognise that
> for > individuals to assert inappropriate privileges is immoral? If i
> appropriate > rights that undermine social values, then surely social
> values may > appropriate the right to restrict my perceived freedom?
>
> What "inappropriate privileges" do you have in mind?
>
> Privileges that allow me to undermine society.
> One such privilege may be as a Hollywood film producer?
> Or maybe a 'sell them a dream then ship 'em shit' capitalist purveyor of
> consumerism? (i.e. a Hollywood film producer).
Are you suggesting censorship? There are already laws against fraud.
I should like an emphasis on social and intellectual values and less emphasis
on how important celebrities are.
> But, as Pirsig says, only a non-illusory individual can respond to DQ, the
> creative force of value evolution. Like the biological level example
> above, evolution depends on (real) individuals, just as the growth and
> wider influence of this Web site does. (-:
>
> Evolution depends upon DQ and maintains itself through static latching. Our
> culture is our 'colony' and it is not a healthy one in my view? It is not a
> healthy one because our social values are based on values of the
> individual, and that is putting the cart before the Horse? Surely!
If you ask me, we already have too many laws protecting our "colony."
Colonies don't respond to DQ; only individuals do.
All patterns are in an evolutionary relationship with DQ - even colonies.
The level of sophistication of our colony is living proof of this; and is an
argument against individuality.
> The value trap of individuality allows the many to be manipulated as one -
> by the one! What one individual does today, many millions could be doing
> tomorrow - and you talk about individuality! :-)
Manipulated? Who is being manipulated? No you, I hope. (-:
Platt
>>
If one values the carrot dangled in front of one's nose, then one is going
may be in danger of being manipulated? :)
This thread sakes a question, and my answer would be to suggest that
globalization is destroying diversity on the ecological, social, and if we
are not careful, intellectual level through religious fundamentalism be that
either Islamic or Christian right wing fundamentalism of the particularly
unpleasant variety found in the USA.
I have had the feeling before today that you are an American and a proud one
at that?
I do not wish to be provocative; i like individual Americans ironicaly.
Its the flag waving social bit i have a problem with.
All the best,
Squonk.
P.S. logic? 5th level? Anything to say?
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