Hey Marco,
> > R
> > You have to give up on this idea that killing individuls always goes
> > hand in hand with 'defending the status quo'. Pirsig's very point is
that
> > sometimes killing individuals goes hand in hand with 'defending society
> > itself'.
>
> M
> Ok, it can be, but this is nowadays quite irrelevant. No common criminal
> threatens the modern society, the global village. Even Al-Qaeda "global
> terrorism" can't
> really destroy the social structure.
R
I think this is a bit of a simplification. You know why Al-Qaeda can't
really destroy the social structure? Because the social structure has the
means to KILL Al-Qaeda. The threat of the barbarians destroying society and
Intellect is not "irrelevant" as you say, rather it is DORMANT... Held in
check by men with guns and in large prisons with thick walls. It was that
so many thought the threat was "irrelevant" which allowed 9/11.
M
What
> makes me what I am (my personality) is *mainly* my intellectual self.
Social
> and biological selves are becoming everyday less relevant in this world.
R
I disagree. Here's a little excerpt from one of the first conversations I
ever participated in on this forum several years ago. It was written by the
now absent Donny Palmgren.
"RICHARD
>Individuals, not societies, are the source of ideas. Societies may
>eventually grow to embody and value those ideas, but they start with a
>person, be it Buddha or Jesus or Bodhi Dharma or Plato or Robert M. Pirsig.
>Societies may seize on these ideas and combine them, but
>they originate from individuals.
DONNY
Rick, I've argued on here before that it is un-useful to look at
"society" as meaning "contra-individual." You will find it far more
helpfull to give-up that notion and take "society" to mean
"contra-biological."
The difference between a person (social entity) and a homo-sapian
(bio-entity) is the "socializing process." Infants and feral kids and boys
raised by wolves are purely biological entities. But children, through the
socializing process, become people. This begins (and this is important;
listen up!) by synching the Bio rhythms to a social rhythm. An animal
empties his bladder whenever he gets the urge. *People* control ourselves.
The domestication of wild animals and the socialization of homo-sapiens
is the same thing, really, except that the one is something you do to other
species and the other is something done to your own -- and it is a lot more
extensive. Social entities are what we call "people," and do note that not
all homo-sapiens are people. Here in Tennessee, blacks weren't full people
until recently. Women weren't either. In some parts of the world (India,
China...) they still aren't. The most interesting thing that happens to
crazy people is that lose their "people" status. They are no longer allowed
to manage their own affairs; they lose their rights to sue me in court, to
correct me in a logical proof, and so on.
"Donny Palmgren" = a social entity. "Donny Palmgren" is a set of
moral/social rhythms/patterns imposed over the natural rhythms of
homo-sapian biology. (This is why the personality could die w/o the organism
dying -- coma, psychotic break, schizophrenic attack, join a cult and get
brainwashed by those pesky New Age'rs...) In turn these bio rhythms are
imposed on top of the mechanics/rhythms of "this crude matter" (as Master
Yoda says). The organism could die w/o the matter/energy being destroyed.
And to shift in the other direction: Donny Palmgren, *because* he is
recognized as a mind-ed, socialized personality -- a reasonable self (in the
sense of "That nut has lost all reason!") -- he is allowed to engage in the
proving activity -- to step up onto that "objective" playing-field of logic
and reason (in the sense of "I'm trying to reason w/ you.")."
M
> Another point. Quantity is not quality. Nowadays we are too much on this
> planet. The problem is not protecting potential sources of ideas. Our
> problem is giving them the chance to live in Quality conditions and
produce
> excellent ideas.
R
I agree, quantity of ideas does not = Quality of ideas. But Intellect
measures the Quality of Ideas itself with reasoning (logical consistency,
agreement with experience, economy of explanation, etc.) and in order for
Intellect to make these judgments it desires the deepest well possible from
which to draw ideas to evaluate. Why risk throwing out the baby (ideas)
with the dirty bathwater (criminals). The less bathwater you throw out, the
less babies you'll lose.
rick
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