Hi Marco,
MARCO:
IMO this argument (that the US has contributed immensely to self
determination and defense against totalitarianism) is a small disaster.
Here is why
1) It seems to me that you tend to forget that half Europe has been
liberated by SSSR, Berlin included. If you then state that SSSR was another
evil empire and the USA won the Cold War, don't forget that even Western
Europe won it.
RISKY:
Without US intervention in Europe, the UK and Western Europe would likely
have fallen to the Nazis. I did not write this sentence to disparage Europe,
but to balance out accusations that the US was imperialistic. Nato won the
war against similar Soviet aggression, again with the much needed and moral
support of the US.
M:
2) UK has never been a fascist country, so you can't state that Horse would
currently be a little nazi.
R:
Do you dispute that it probably would have fallen to the nazis? Sorry if i am
wrong here, I thought this was well accepted.
M:
3) 60 years have elapsed. America and Europe are not anymore the same.
Neither Horse, nor me nor you were alive then.
R:
It was one part of my response to Horse's lopsided characterization of the US
as an imperialist nation that seeks to subdue all others. But you are right,
it is old news. I will try to stick to more recent examples.
M:
4) During these 60 years, 3 nations in the Western capitalist Europe have
been fascist and allied of the USA: Spain, Portugal, Greece. If now these
are three democratic nations they have not to thank particularly America...
mainly themselves... Just like today it is more useful to let the
Tibetans suffer the Chinese rule than fighting for Tibet.
R:
I have already agreed several times that support of puppet regimes IS
immoral. I am glad they gained independence by themselves. The point stands
though that without the US as part of the team, they would have fallen to
very evil regimes that can accurately be characterized as imperialistic. As
for Tibet, what says you Italians take this one. OK? It is your turn. When
the US defends others, Gav attacks us as bullies. When we don't, Horse
accuses us of being self centered.
M:
5) "Some mistakes" sound like the "Collateral damages" of the intelligent
(!) bombs... Euphemisms. More honest would be simply saying that America has
committed "less crimes" than Germany, Italy, Japan or SSSR.
R:
What about the crime of not lending aid at all? I am only making these
points in defense of very biased characterisations of the US as a one
dimensional, imperialist bully. Countries, like people, take action and
occasionally make mistakes. The US has made its share. I suggest that
others haven't made their share. If Americans intentionally tried to conquor
and exploit others I would probably agree with the word "crimes" though.
M:
So why a disaster? 'cause IMO it shows how the common opinion many Americans
have about the actions of their nations bears a mix of truth and social
propaganda.
R:
Where was the propaganda? If I mischaracterized anything, it is simply
because I am not an expert on foriegn affairs or world history.
Let me know where I am wrong. There can't be much room for propaganda with a
free exchange of ideas.
Risky
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