Hi Rog,
my point was not that it is a disaster to state that "the US has contributed
immensely to self determination and defense against totalitarianism".
It is a disaster to defend this point through the idea that the USA is the
only one and always positive actor on this planet. Maybe you don't tell
this,
but forgetting the positive roles of the others, and dismissing the crimes
of your nation as *collateral damage* you just appear to be onto that. If
you want to bear the point that the US is not imperialistic, I think you
should better avoid falling fall into the temptation of this kind of
replies.
Or you just pick up resented answers from those that have contributed and
you forget... or from those that did not receive a good treatment from
America.
> RISKY:
> I did not write this sentence to disparage Europe,
> but to balance out accusations that the US was imperialistic.
And I'm not defending Europe. Actually I feel that we are on the same side
(remember, "I am [also] an American").
By the way, IMO US politics is in the end quite poor, and mainly prone to
the market.....I think US economy -more than US politics- is imperialistic.
And if you are looking for definitions, try neo-colonialism. US economy is
very quick asking for and obtaining free market or protections, depending on
the convenience of the moment.
> M:
> 2) UK has never been a fascist country, so you can't state that Horse
would
> currently be a little nazi.
>
> R:
> Do you dispute that it probably would have fallen to the nazis? Sorry if I
am
> wrong here, I thought this was well accepted.
M:
Perhaps, it is not easy to say. The main mistake of the Axis has been the
Pearl Harbor attack. If Japan had attacked Russia from East, probably the
whole Eurasian continent had fallen into their hands. And I'm not sure that
the USA in that case had entered WWII. But of course Japan had no interest
in Siberia....
Anyway, it is also possible that in 60 years the UK would have been able to
free itself... who knows? Maybe Horse could have become a sort of English
"Che
Guevara"!
> M:
> 4) During these 60 years, 3 nations in the Western capitalist Europe have
> been fascist and allied of the USA: Spain, Portugal, Greece. If now these
> are three democratic nations they have not to thank particularly
> America... mainly themselves...
> The only difference between Italy and them is that in
> the "European game", it has been useful to liberate Italy and let the
> Spaniards suffer Franco.... Just like today it is more useful to let the
> Tibetans suffer the Chinese rule than fighting for Tibet.
> R:
> I have already agreed several times that support of puppet regimes IS
> immoral. I am glad they gained independence by themselves. The point
stands
> though that without the US as part of the team, they would have fallen to
> very evil regimes that can accurately be characterized as imperialistic.
As
> for Tibet, what says you Italians take this one. OK? It is your turn.
M:
I offered the example just to show that it is possible to free an European
nation from fascism even without America, thanks God. And that America
sometimes is on the right side, sometimes not. Indeed, more on the right one
than on the wrong one, but not always. So, about Tibet, it is obvious that
Italy can't fight China. And anyway I'm not asking the NATO for bombing
Peking. Just showing that Tibetans are suffering similar pains as the
Afghans *since 50 years*, but the West -USA and Europe- seem to forget it
and sit at the same table with Chinese dictators.
> M:
> 5) "Some mistakes" sound like the "Collateral damages" of the intelligent
> (!) bombs... Euphemisms. More honest would be simply saying that America
has
> committed "less crimes" than Germany, Italy, Japan or SSSR.
>
> R:
> What about the crime of not lending aid at all? I am only making these
> points in defense of very biased characterisations of the US as a one
> dimensional, imperialist bully. Countries, like people, take action and
> occasionally make mistakes. The US has made its share. I suggest that
> others haven't made their share. If Americans intentionally tried to
conquor
> and exploit others I would probably agree with the word "crimes" though.
M:
I think that perpetuating the embargo on Cuba and Iraq is a crime. TODAY. A
couple of examples in the recent past are the well known supports of
Pinochet and the Contras.... And let's not forget that your democratic
founding fathers, while writing the Bill of Rights, used to have African
slaves at home. These are crimes. Then, you can compare them with the
crimes of the Nazis or Stalin, and state that these latter are more serious.
> M:
> So why a disaster? 'cause IMO it shows how the common opinion many
Americans
> have about the actions of their nations bears a mix of truth and social
> propaganda.
>
> R:
> Where was the propaganda? If I mischaracterized anything, it is simply
> because I am not an expert on foriegn affairs or world history.
>
> Let me know where I am wrong. There can't be much room for propaganda
with a
> free exchange of ideas.
>
M:
The propaganda is bearing the concept that USA is the only and always
positive actor in this world. Something like "If it wasn't for America, the
world would be a Nazi-Comm-Fundamentalist global dictatorship.... it is IMO
a nonsense; or, at least an exaggeration.
Ciao,
Marco
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