Re: MD Progressing beyond mirrors

>RISKY: >Could I offer that the world might have been a lot worse place as an

>extension of Stalinist totalitarianism if it wasn't for these two bullies?

GAV: perhaps. perhaps not.

the cold war was largely an illusion - created for the mutual gain of the elites of both sides. the spectre of communism provided the leverage that the west needed to limit civil rights at home, and justify its conquests abroad. the same goes in reverse, but to a lesser extent (the soviet union was far less expansionist).

contemporary parallels ('history repeating') include:

 1. the 'drug war'. the war on drugs most vociferously championed by the bush snr administration was and has always been the grossest of hypocrisies. bush (with pal cum fall guy noriega) was basically a drug baron when with the CIA.

2. saddam and osama. the US elite loves saddam and osama. the bush family has a long history with the bin ladens and saddam was pin up boy #1 for years. again we see doublespeak in action: to the media and public they are enemies of the worst kind that need to be caught and brought to justice; to those who matter they are key allies (that funnily enough seem to evade capture). orwell, orwell, orwell.

3. the war on terrorism. the latest spectre for the masses. apart from the truism that terrorism *reinforces the state *(terry gilliam's 'brazil' is brilliant on this point), their seems to be a simple and glaring logical flaw here: how can you have a war on terror. it is like having a war on war?!. i wonder....have any new laws been passed limiting human rights (intellectual value being oppressed by social value = immoral) in the US after s11?

 

RISKY:>I am not mistaken the US just withdrew from Panama... donating a

>wonder-of-engineering canal in the process.

GAV: panama. 1989-90. nationalist governement overthrown by US troops (27 000 soldiers) and aerial bombardment. 2000+ (mostly civilians) killed.

 

RISKY:> England just withdrew from Hong

>Kong. El Salvador and Vietnam were regretable and educational mistakes in

>opposition to that peaceful bastion of non-imperialism the Soviet Union.

GAV: invasion is invasion. i would love to see one - just one - vietnam war film from the vietnamese perspective. nothing like a bit of balance eh? oh and 1-2 million killed in vietnam.

RISKY:>Iraq involved a multilateral defense of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait... remember?

GAV: Iraq withdrew from Kuwait before the deadline and were looking for a peaceful settlement to the border area oilfields dispute. i mean who would want to fight the US etc for pity's sake. it was the insistence of the US at the UN and the bribing of many middle eastern countries that  led to desert storm's atrocities against the iraqi people *and also allied soldiers*. the legacy of the gulf war is still with us. indeed the war is still going - sanctions remain as does saddam. this particualr crime makes me particualrly angry so i'll stop before i say anything rash.

RISKY:>against a Soviet >invasion and were the largest contributer of aid to the Taliban until they >allowed state-sponsored terrorists to kill thousands of our citizens and then

>refused to bring them to justice.

GAV:> that's right. the US sponsored and continues to sponsor the most extreme regimes and insurgents to do its dirty work (like pulling the USSR into afghanistan). good stuff eh?

RISKY:> Remember? In Bosnia, we led the timid NATO

>defense of a Moslem people being eliminated via genocide... remember?

GAV:> and ended up killing more of them than the serbs did?!!?

 RISKY:>I am >not aware of any current US occupation of Iran, Chile or Indonesia.

not occupation - the CIA: covert ops stuff . thanks in large part to the CIA , suharto toppled sukarno and had 1 million 'undesirables' (communists, socialists, trade unionists, teachers etc) killed in indonesia (1965). in Iran (1953) the reformist democratic government (who made the mistake of nationalising their oilfields) was toppled with help and funding from the CIA and the US friendly shah was installed. Chile (1973) - probably the most famous and tragic of all in a way. Allende's truly popular (but socialist - mistake!!!) democratic government was toppled by CIA  backed coup. allende was killed as parliament was bombed - he refused to run to safety. pinochet begins reign of terror that sees thousands tortured and killed. he is proclaimed a hero by thatcher and reagan.

RISKY:>Furthermore, I believe the worst thing we can do to poor nations is prohibit

>them from enjoying the fruits of free trade.

GAV:> narrow but logical argument. unfortunately the US is protectionist in nearly all trade areas that the poor nations could benefit from: 'do what we say not what we do'. personally i think democracy's the best thing we could let these poor nations enjoy: the power to control and enjoy their own resources rather than having them stolen by the US/UK etc.

RISKY:>If fighting communist world domination

GAV:> i must have missed something in history class.

RISKY:> and retaliating against immoral >aggression

GAV:> against the US? when?

RISKY:>makes the US equivalent to Nazi's,

GAV:> if we go by the scorecards the US is much worse.

RISKY:> then I am at a loss for words.There is a context to these struggles. Do you really think the world would have been better if we allowed the Bosnians and Iraqies and Soviets and Chinese to conquor it?

GAV:> the point is (apart from the fact that none of these nations tried to conquer the world) any nation that tries to conquer the world is immoral. it is *immoral* for the giant to curtail human rights the way it does in the west. in the poor countries this oppression is much much worse.

 

RISKY:>The US has made mistakes and did go too far imo in fighting communism and

>propping up puppet dictatorships. I believe that we should and have learned

>from those mistakes. I know of no disinformation on any of these topics,

GAV:> that's how disinformation works (see/read 'manufacturing consent')

 RISKY:>but

>I appreciate clarification if I am mistaken on any of my responses. >

>The world isn't black and white. The US isn't a genocidal bully,

GAV:> unfortunately for all it is.

> nor is it a

>saint and above criticism. Let's approach issues with balance and >appropriate regard to context and alternative risks of inaction. > >Risky >PS -- I am an avowed semi-libertarian moderate. However, I am way right of

>you!,

GAV:> political views and speculation about what might have been aside....can we agree that NOW - in the world as it stands today - there is no room for imperialism. to me that (democracy and freedom) is what the morality of intellect v  society is all about.