To Gav again
>From Risky again
GAV:
i think perhaps that we are not as far apart as it may seem. america's
constitution and bill of rights are high intellectual quality - probably the
best system in the world. this is important to remember. the problems america
faces and poses to the rest of the world do not stem from its core democratic
base. they stem from the circumvention of it. for instance early in the 20th
century the usa granted corporations the status of immortal individuals in
law. from an moq perspective this is highly immoral - a social pattern of
value being accorded effectively more importance than the individual
(intellectual pattern of value). this step led to the growth in size and
power of social entities that today are larger and more powerful than most
countries. this is simple MoQ immorality: these giants oppress the human
rights of individuals around the world and are inherently antidemocratic,
both internally and in their influence upon all levels of government.
R:
Corporations are given certain rights and responsibilities. Corporations
represent large groups of individuals. There is nothing fundamentally immoral
in the size of an organization, nor in its ability to INFLUENCE others.
Where there is a potential for immorality is where corporations use their
influence to exploit or oppress others (other people or institutions). You
are doing the same parody of corporations as you did of America (worse than
nazis). [NOTE: I am not defending bad corporations, I am simply stating that
most corporations are not bad. I know some are.]
G:
you could even say that the disproportionate power of corporations is
fundamentally! unamerican. as corporations have grown in wealth and influence
we have seen a shift from democracy to a kind of global corporate fascism.
the IMF, World Bank, World Trade Organisation, World Economic Forum (and the
governemnts they work with) are geared to opening up national economies (via
loans) to international (corporate) 'investment'. corporations are free to
go where they want - leaving massive job losses and social problems in their
wake - in the search for the cheapest resources and most compliant labour
forces. now this is where it gets really ugly and messy - this is heart of
the disagreement i think: the lines between government and corporations have
become blurred to the point of dangerous conflicts of interest.
R:
Are you again against world trade? Are you against individuals -- or
corporations -- having the freedom to decide where to build a factory or
offer a job as long as they are following local rules and requirements? Does
your economic model include seeking the LEAST economical resources? How is
this wise? Who do you want to control sources of investment and creation? I
thought you feared central coordination?
G:
The BUSH family has massive corporate interests in oil and arms. surely this
is a conflict of interest?
R:
I am pretty sure politicians such as the President have to liquidate holdings
in corporations and place their funds in blind trusts. I believe you are
wrong here.
G:
what we are seeing is that the final check on corpoarte power (disregarding
the UN which is a paper tiger and recently decided to utilise corporations
itself to provide 'aid') - national governements - being totally usurped by
corporate interests. we are no longer facing a battle between social
(corporate) and intellectual (democratic) value. corporate power has won.
R:
Do you subscribe to some kind of CONSPIRACY newsletter or something? Who do
you suggest hires people? How do you suggest capital be raised and directed?
How do you believe new ideas should be created and products be built? Any
idea what happens if the 6 or 7 billion human beings alive today decide to go
back and live off the woods?
G:
this is why the US *as a whole* is seen as evil in the world.
R:
I knew we would end back here. What about Sony and Phillips? Are they our
fault too?
G:
this is why protests around the world (including america of course!!) are
growing in size and anger. last week 500 000 protested in barcelona over
corporatisation there. this is the only democracy left - the democracy of the
streets;
R:
Peaceful protest makes sense to me. Free speech is good.
G:
i'll leave you with a poem by eduardo galeano that looks at this stuff from
the perspective of the world's poora circular symphony for poor countries in
six successive movements
So that labour may be increasingly obedient and cheap, the poor countries
need legions of executors, torturers, inquisitors, jailers and informers.To
feed and arm these legions, the poor countries need loans from the rich
countries.To pay interest on these loans the poor countries need more loansTo
pay interest on the loans on top of the loans the poor countries need to
increase their exportsTo increase their exports, products condemned to
perpetually collapsing prices, the poor countries need lower production
costsTo lower production costs the poor countries need increasingly cheap and
obedient labourTo make labour increasingly obedient and cheap the poor
countries need legions of executors, torturers
R:
Any country with torturers is not a place where a respectable company would
choose to go. Don't characterize corporations by misfits or nationstates by
the failures. This is a disfunctional recipe for progress. A better one is
find a community with people needing a job or a better job and offer them
one. I can provide examples of where it works.
Rather than get loans to pay executioners, how about a democracy where we get
a new government? I know of few corporations that are willing to play much
with dictatorships and totalitarians. They have a tendency of stealing from
the corporation too.
Funny how standards of living, education, opportunity, health, lifespan etc
keep on getting better and better in 3rd world countries that are open to
free enterprise, isn't it? Maybe this viscious spiral is a figment of the
author's imagination? Maybe it is a better summary of totalitarian, anti-
free enterprise regimes like those in the middle east than of open, free
nations.
G:
this is such a complex issue!!! i mean the fact that there are more and more
voices criticising the bastions of social power implies growing intellectual
quality by itself. maybe that is really what's happening: the growing
awareness of the illegitimacy, irrationality and inhumanity of the world
according to corporate globalisation is the victory of intellectual quality
over social quality. and more than any other single factor, the internet is
THE vehicle of intellectual supremacy over social control: absolute freedom
of expression - unhindered dissemination of news and knowledge. i am
optimistic guys - don't get me wrong - but we are still very much part of a
huge moral struggle. we are, as the chinese curse goes, living in interesting
times.
R:
Yea, and we all know Microsoft, Intel, HP, Dell, Oracle, Apple, AOL, ATT, etc
are small time "grass roots" organizations too.
It is wise in business to treat people well and play by the rules and to go
to places where people treat each other well and have fair rules. Bad
corporations -- like bad people and bad nations -- exist. Let's learn from
what the good ones do rather than by portraying the bad as the standard. If
we can't see the good and bad in today's society and understand Quality in
comparison to actual alternatives, then we have no foundation for progress.
Risky
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