Yeah, Sometimes people like to blame all their problems on "the system"
or "evil corperations". All corperations have ever done for me is offer me
the goods and services I want and a job so I can afford those things. If
anything, it's my fault for wanting that life.
If you don't like a corperation, then don't buy their stuff. Nuff said,
that's how you can really make a difference. I know so many people who
complain about corperations while wearing their Gap outfits and Nike shoes
and drinking their coke and driving their dad's SUV.
It seems that they don't even know what a corperation is.
It's too cool to be anti-globalization these days for it to be treated
objectively.
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of RISKYBIZ9@aol.com
Sent: March 23, 2002 1:53 PM
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: MD Corporate Evil
To Gav again
>From Risky again
GAV:
i think perhaps that we are not as far apart as it may seem. america's
constitution and bill of rights are high intellectual quality - probably the
best system in the world. this is important to remember. the problems
america faces and poses to the rest of the world do not stem from its core
democratic base. they stem from the circumvention of it. for instance early
in the 20th century the usa granted corporations the status of immortal
individuals in law. from an moq perspective this is highly immoral - a
social pattern of value being accorded effectively more importance than the
individual (intellectual pattern of value). this step led to the growth in
size and power of social entities that today are larger and more powerful
than most countries. this is simple MoQ immorality: these giants oppress the
human rights of individuals around the world and are inherently
antidemocratic, both internally and in their influence upon all levels of
government.
R:
Corporations are given certain rights and responsibilities. Corporations
represent large groups of individuals. There is nothing fundamentally
immoral in the size of an organization, nor in its ability to INFLUENCE
others. Where there is a potential for immorality is where corporations use
their influence to exploit or oppress others (other people or institutions).
You are doing the same parody of corporations as you did of America (worse
than nazis). [NOTE: I am not defending bad corporations, I am simply
stating that most corporations are not bad. I know some are.]
G:
you could even say that the disproportionate power of corporations is
fundamentally! unamerican. as corporations have grown in wealth and
influence we have seen a shift from democracy to a kind of global corporate
fascism. the IMF, World Bank, World Trade Organisation, World Economic Forum
(and the governemnts they work with) are geared to opening up national
economies (via loans) to international (corporate) 'investment'.
corporations are free to go where they want - leaving massive job losses and
social problems in their wake - in the search for the cheapest resources and
most compliant labour forces. now this is where it gets really ugly and
messy - this is heart of the disagreement i think: the lines between
government and corporations have become blurred to the point of dangerous
conflicts of interest.
R:
Are you again against world trade? Are you against individuals -- or
corporations -- having the freedom to decide where to build a factory or
offer a job as long as they are following local rules and requirements? Does
your economic model include seeking the LEAST economical resources? How is
this wise? Who do you want to control sources of investment and creation?
I thought you feared central coordination?
G:
The BUSH family has massive corporate interests in oil and arms. surely
this is a conflict of interest?
R:
I am pretty sure politicians such as the President have to liquidate
holdings in corporations and place their funds in blind trusts. I believe
you are wrong here.
G:
what we are seeing is that the final check on corpoarte power
(disregarding the UN which is a paper tiger and recently decided to utilise
corporations itself to provide 'aid') - national governements - being
totally usurped by corporate interests. we are no longer facing a battle
between social (corporate) and intellectual (democratic) value. corporate
power has won.
R:
Do you subscribe to some kind of CONSPIRACY newsletter or something? Who
do you suggest hires people? How do you suggest capital be raised and
directed? How do you believe new ideas should be created and products be
built? Any idea what happens if the 6 or 7 billion human beings alive today
decide to go back and live off the woods?
G:
this is why the US *as a whole* is seen as evil in the world.
R:
I knew we would end back here. What about Sony and Phillips? Are they our
fault too?
G:
this is why protests around the world (including america of course!!) are
growing in size and anger. last week 500 000 protested in barcelona over
corporatisation there. this is the only democracy left - the democracy of
the streets;
R:
Peaceful protest makes sense to me. Free speech is good.
G:
i'll leave you with a poem by eduardo galeano that looks at this stuff
from the perspective of the world's poora circular symphony for poor
countries in six successive movements
So that labour may be increasingly obedient and cheap, the poor countries
need legions of executors, torturers, inquisitors, jailers and informers.To
feed and arm these legions, the poor countries need loans from the rich
countries.To pay interest on these loans the poor countries need more
loansTo pay interest on the loans on top of the loans the poor countries
need to increase their exportsTo increase their exports, products condemned
to perpetually collapsing prices, the poor countries need lower production
costsTo lower production costs the poor countries need increasingly cheap
and obedient labourTo make labour increasingly obedient and cheap the poor
countries need legions of executors, torturers
R:
Any country with torturers is not a place where a respectable company
would choose to go. Don't characterize corporations by misfits or
nationstates by the failures. This is a disfunctional recipe for progress.
A better one is find a community with people needing a job or a better job
and offer them one. I can provide examples of where it works.
Rather than get loans to pay executioners, how about a democracy where we
get a new government? I know of few corporations that are willing to play
much with dictatorships and totalitarians. They have a tendency of stealing
from the corporation too.
Funny how standards of living, education, opportunity, health, lifespan
etc keep on getting better and better in 3rd world countries that are open
to free enterprise, isn't it? Maybe this viscious spiral is a figment of
the author's imagination? Maybe it is a better summary of totalitarian,
anti- free enterprise regimes like those in the middle east than of open,
free nations.
G:
this is such a complex issue!!! i mean the fact that there are more and
more voices criticising the bastions of social power implies growing
intellectual quality by itself. maybe that is really what's happening: the
growing awareness of the illegitimacy, irrationality and inhumanity of the
world according to corporate globalisation is the victory of intellectual
quality over social quality. and more than any other single factor, the
internet is THE vehicle of intellectual supremacy over social control:
absolute freedom of expression - unhindered dissemination of news and
knowledge. i am optimistic guys - don't get me wrong - but we are still very
much part of a huge moral struggle. we are, as the chinese curse goes,
living in interesting times.
R:
Yea, and we all know Microsoft, Intel, HP, Dell, Oracle, Apple, AOL, ATT,
etc are small time "grass roots" organizations too.
It is wise in business to treat people well and play by the rules and to
go to places where people treat each other well and have fair rules. Bad
corporations -- like bad people and bad nations -- exist. Let's learn
from what the good ones do rather than by portraying the bad as the
standard. If we can't see the good and bad in today's society and understand
Quality in comparison to actual alternatives, then we have no foundation for
progress.
Risky
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