Bo,
>BO
>The way I see it Pirsig means that SOM is a solipsism that enjoys its present
>status because of so many are figments of it and no book called "The
>Subject/Object Metaphysicsl" is to be found. No, this don't bother me, the
>moment other joined Pirsig a small but viable solipsism was born.
Huh?
>BO
>Haven't you missed the point of ZAMM where Phaedrus (mostly at the garden
>party at De Weese's ) tries to address the discovery/creation distinction? This
>is highlighted in the Newton-gravity example so let's concentrate on that.
I think I understand this well enough. It's weird.
>BO
>First of all, you MAY have taken the above point, but you see the MOQ as
>creating the complication "...by insisting that everything is created (by the the
>"measure of man"). It's here many go wrong by believing that Phaedrus says
>that the material world is created by mind (of man: idealism) but he actually
>says: (p 368 Corgi Books)
>
>* Man is not the source of all things, as the subjective idealist would say,
> nor is he the passive observer of all things as the objective idealist and
> materialist would say. The quality which creates the world emerges as a
> relationship between man and his experience. He is a participant in the
> creation of all things ...etc
...
>BO
>OK, it may sound as splitting hair, but "all things" aren't just the objective
>world but the the subjective as well, ...
"measure of man" is from a Pirsig quote in ZMM, and yes, I understand
the finer points of this creation as being participatory, as far as that makes
any sense. But yes, I do think it is hair-splitting. It's still idealism.
>BO
>Then the Gravity/Newton issue (I couldn't find it in ZAMM, do you have the
>page number?) where he says something to the effect of there being no
>gravity prior to Newton and something about modern man balking at such a
>statement replying that it - along with all phenomena - were there for Newton
>to discover.
It's around pg. 40 in my 25th Anniversary Edition.
>BO
>This I wrote about to Wim so it'll be a repetition. Once a theory is accepted it
>reaches back and re-crystallize the past into its own image. Before Newton
>the Greek physics reigned and they naturally observed that things fell to the
>ground but attributed the phenomenon to other principles (I may not be very
>accurate here) yet they were able to calculate quite well from those premises.
My views about the gravity passage begin here:
http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/0102/0185.html
>Now WE are sure that (the observation) is due to "gravity" and our
>calculations are immaculate , but there is no such absolute truth/reality, there
>will surely someday come a new theory that puts this observation into a still
>greater context (hasn't General Relativity already done so?).
A number of responses to my post above mention this observation,
and what is said about newer theories is true enough, even if I might
waffle a bit on whether there is an absolute truth/reality. But this
observation had the effect of derailing the thread from its main point,
which was to generalise Pirsig's radical ideas about creation vs. discovery,
illustrated by his views on gravity.
Then I got some responses that thought Pirsig was only saying something
mundane about gravity. Indeed, that companion book to ZMM (I forget its
title), written by a couple PhDs, states that Pirsig wasn't saying things
didn't fall to earth before Newton, only that the equation for the law of
gravity wasn't known before Newton. They are right on the first count,
but really miss the point on the second.
>BO
>So the
>Newton/Gravity example is not made troublesome by the MOQ - nor is "time"
>as you mentioned ...it's SOM as always. Conclusion: A metaphysics - as a
>theory of everything - reaches back and changes everything - EVERY LAST
>BIT OF IT! (245)
>
If you believe as I think Pirsig does, then you think that Newton's creation
literally reached back in time and changed things, not just our ideas
about things but the things themselves - not just our concepts about gravity
but the objective Ptolemeic spheres with stars attached vanished as well.
Glenn
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