On 2 Apr 2002 at 0:35, Glenn Bradford wrote:
> Didn't you once slip and say that "the MOQ could be called the
> Metaphysics of Subjectivity"?
You really remember my posts Glenn, only that is a small wonder.
About this first point you possibly remember Struan Hellier uttering a
similar ...you finally admitted it! ... exclamation. Let me try to clear
things up a bit?
When P. of ZAMM had his insight back in the fifties it was from - but in
contrast to - the S/O metaphysical "platform" he was standing on
(without him having any such notion at that time) - and as he grew more
radical he alienated his surroundings and such is the strength of the
social (whether we accept the MOQ view or not) that no-one can
endure it: He "went mad" as it is called.
As said P was submerged in SOM, and as it don't have the Q-level
distinctions its explanation for such instances are that there is a
boundary for what is allowed to think - beyond that is the solipsist
abyss. There are many variations over this theme, but enough for now.
Phaedrus was alone with his Quality and even if his intellectual self told
him he was right, his social self was not convinced (as said he had not
worked out these distinctions yet) and he succumbed.
So much for the personal aspect, the philosophical is a bit like it. He
was from the SOM and (as told in ZAMM) faced with the two
alternatives that SOM offers: Was Quality subjective or objective? As
you remember he rejected the objective "horn" and was then faced
with the subjective, where he started by zooming in on the 'just' term
that usually follows it.(This goes on from page 223 to 234 and
culminates with the ..."Quality the cause of subjective and
objective..."). Anyway, the idea is that from a SOM point of view Quality
is subjective and the MOQ a "metaphysics of subjectivity". However,
from the new platform everything is inverted: Subjective/objective are
subdivisions of Quality.
I can't force you to accept that, but try at least to understand the
context which I said it in.
> Haven't you in a past post "staggered to
> the podium" to deny the MOQ's idealism for the n'th time only to
> shortly thereafter admit it? Haven't you said that you could
> understand how people could view the MOQ premise as "outrageous" and
> (see just below) as "madness"?
You also remember my antics :-).
> >It's perfectly OK, to say (to
> >oneself): "H... this is madness, I won't touch it!", but to treat the
> >MOQ an interesting theory worth exploring ... without acceptance of
> >the the initial postulate is beyond me. Please, no "ire" directed
> >your way Glenn, it's just that each time someone return after a break
> >and presents a promising-sounding message my hopes rise.
If one isn't capable of seeing beyond SOM (or intellect in my view) it is
madness, I see that and maybe why Pirsig didn't want to follow
Phaedrus' hard line.
> You'll have to show me where you think I said or even implied that the
> MOQ was an interesting theory worth exploring. Either you mis-read or
> read-into what I wrote or I didn't make myself clear. Please try not
> to confuse statements I make that clarify what I think Pirsig believes
> with what I believe. When in doubt about this, a good rule of thumb is
> to assume I don't agree with him. Glenn
It makes it even more mysterious why you find it worth participating, but
please, at least you talk philosophy, the rest has gone into politics :-).
One of my consolations is that the said Struan Hellier said in his final
noted:
"I have to say, Bo, that your response to my 'prodding of brains'
posting was impressive and educated me upon the moq
approach. This was a rare occurrence on a forum marked by
concerted personal
attacks upon anyone questioning the accepted norm and I
appreciated it."
This I really cherish and hope you can be likewise educated, my posts
are not personal attacks that is for sure.
Bo
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