Dear Jonathan,
So, this it, eh? Hit and run attacks? regardless of who started the thread,
you offered an 'historical summary'. No one forced you to do it. You
conveniently started with the Mandate, but gave a radically distorted
account of it. I suggested you read the actual document, and a number of
others that shine further light on the purpose of the mandate. You offer you
the primary citations. You decline. You cite 'other documents', implying
that they are relevant to the topic. I ask you what they are, and now you
duck this question, too. You try ad hominum attacks -- your "cost-free
moralism" comment, and wonder why that won't suffice to silence those
offering a more critical appraisal than you wish to hear. Then, you try and
duck behind Rog...
Jonathan, what Sharon is now doing brings no honor to Israel or its people,
or those who support Israel. It is not good enough to say 'we are defending
ourselves', when the actions your government is taking in fact have done
nothing but aggravate the situation. In the late 60s and early 70s, many of
us in America had to conclude, hard as it was, that what our government was
doing in Viet Nam was profoundly immoral and dysfunctional. Before that,
many Americans had to conclude that racist anti-black policies and practices
in this country were also immoral.
There are a few in Israel who are crying out that what Sharon is doing is
equally immoral and dysfunctional. And now to their voices are being joined
those of a few American Jews and non-Jewish supporters of Israel. What
Sharon is doing, and the pervasive refusal of so many Israelis and
supporters of Israel to recognize the continuous history of past injustices
committed in the name of Israel and Judaism against the Palestinian people,
does nobody any honor. Yes, Israel is now in a tough spot, but it is one
that past Zionist leaders and its current leadership have squarely and
predictably put it in. Did you not know that back in 1902 -- yes, 1902,
BEFORE the mandate -- Ben Gurion, the eventual prime minister of Israel, had
already decided that one day the Zionists would have to conquer Palestine by
force? (Not that you seem very interested in primary sources, but yes, I can
give that one to you, as well.) Have you ever read Menachem Begin's
autobiography? Until you do, please stop complaining about the Palestinian
use of violence/terror. Begin and the other lads of the Irgun and Stern
Gangs pioneered terrorism in the Holy Land. Does Deir Yaseen mean anything
to you? Or is that also not taught in Israeli schools?
Would you not consider joining the hand-full of Israelis and American Jews
who are crying out that what Sharon is doing is profoundly wrong? I know it
isn't easy. I've had to speak out, and more, against the conventional
certainties in my own country; simply, this IS the price of a moral freedom.
In the name of humanity, I ask you whether you will not do the same now?
My heart goes out to you. Whichever is your decision.
Lawry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
> [mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of Jonathan B. Marder
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 4:17 PM
> To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Subject: Re: MD israel, palestine and the US
>
>
> Hi Lawrence,
>
> > Jonathan, you duck my point:
>
> Lawrence, I think that you have yet to make your point!
>
> > You may not like my saying this, but you can't just come on a
> list, make a
> > bunch of incorrect statements, and then be offended when you are offered
> > some help in getting a fuller and more accurate view of what happened.
>
> I was wondering to see what I might have said that you consider incorrect,
> so checked back through your posts to see what you had written.
> After all, I
> am not a professional historian, and you are hinting that perhaps you do
> really know way more than me.
>
> > In this case, I do assert that I know quite a bit more than you
> about the
> > political history of Israel; I know this because your summary of its
> history
> > indicates that you have NOT looked at the documents I cited (or perhaps
> > don't remember them well). I listed the key documents for the period and
> > themes that you were trying to summarize, and again invite you
> to consult
> > them.
> > You
> > put the phrase "correct version" in quotes, as if there were no such
> thing.
> > But, indeed, there is a massive documentary history available,
> and if you
> > had studied it you would surely have at least a "more correct"
> version in
> > your mind than you do. Perhaps political science and legal
> history are not
> > your field" and you don't feel you should have to do this work -- fair
> > enough --, but if this is the case you will appreciate then the
> idea that
> > you ought to concede the point that some others are likely to know more
> > about it than you.
>
> Lawrence, beyond providing press clips and your list of historical
> documents, you have made no point whatsoever. There is nothing for me to
> concede. You have not given us your version of the history, nor made any
> specific correction to mine. That being the case, I think the
> ball is firmly
> in your court. If and when you decide to return it, I will then decide
> whether or not to duck it.
>
> [snip]
> > Please DO let me have a list of the "several other" documents that I did
> not
> > cite that you think might increase my own level of understanding.
>
> Actually, I think it is a waste of time looking at old documents
> for its own
> sake. The only value would be to settle arguments. I have stated my own
> position and you are welcome to address it, citing whatever documentary
> support you need. I reserve the right to do the same if and when you
> enlighten me more on your own position.
> On the other hand, we both need to consider how much relevance this will
> have to advancing the MoQ.
>
> You will note that is not me who started this thread on the
> Israel-Palestine
> conflict. I have no intention of hijacking this forum to discuss
> this issue,
> but I won't stand idly by watching other people posting "information" I
> consider misleading or slanderous.
> I am the first to admit that I am the last person on this list who can be
> trusted to be objective, so I excuse myself from the jury. I
> appreciate that
> people like yourself have valid things to say, and I am all ears
> waiting to
> hear something constructive.However, if you really want to
> present yourself
> as an expert witness, I want to cross-examine. On second thoughts, maybe
> I'll leave that to Roger - his set of questions show that he is probably
> much more effective than I would be.
>
> All the best,
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>
>
>
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