Mainly 3WD but for Squonk, Joao, Dan, Wim and All.
I am not at my regular dwelling and haven't got myself collected fully,
besides I thought that the MD had become an Israel/Palestinian
discussion, but 3 WDave's "other species", along with Joao's "AI" got
me going again.
3wd said (about Pirsig's comment that society & intellect are limited to
the human kind)
>But second, and more critically, in an evolutionary system where a
>patterns of value are supposedly evolving toward higher levels, this
>limit, metaphysically locks the system to any furture migration into the
>upper two levels of any values other than human ones.
Yes, we may agree on this - and disagree with Pirsig, but I from
different motives perhaps. There is as we know no specific human
biological LEVEL, but why should the fact that only the humans have
developed (to the degree of supporting) intellectual value, mean that
the social level is anthropomorf? Or Intellect for that matter? I even find
Pirsig's response to Dan about this, a bit uncalled for. It's my dread of
everything being in our minds he perpetuates by implying that only
humans theorize ...which is true SOMish seen, and the very reason for
developing the MoQ in the first place, but when re-introduced as a
MOQ argument it reinstitutes SOM (for those who don't have his great
overview).
Any creature could have been the vehicle of SOCIAL value to the
extent that it supported INTELECTUAL value and in that case this
(Pirsig) quote wouldn't be quite true (not any creature literally, please
understand).
> > One of (the MOQ's)
> > its limits is that without humans to make it that assumption
> > cannot be made. It is a human specific assumption. Strictly
> > speaking, Anders has never heard of or ever will hear of anything
> > that isn’t human specific."- RMP from Lila's Child, print edition
I understand this and it's valid, but this (implied) talk about the human
mind (not the social level) as the Q-intellect "carrier" locks us up in our
heads (again) and is completely un-moqish. It's me interpreting Pirsig's
utterings wrongly, but they SOUND undermining for the astounding
edifice he has laid down the cornerstones of.
A - say - ape (planet) intellect would have been dependent upon an ape
society clearly, but its struggle to free itself from social VALUE would
have been just as heroic as the known intellect's effort to free itself from
the human society. Q-INTELLECT that is, not intelligence which is tied
to the species' neural system. Which is why SOM never gets the
Artificial Itelligence right and why we indulge into the outlandish
supercomputation chimeras for the next Q step. That's as far as I came,
the rest of the AI will follow.
Bo
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