Lawry, I would be quite interested in your less-biased middle east reading
list. Note that the list of "facts" was in no way intended to be unbiased.
I intentionally only included statements that I thought those accusing the
other side of Orwellian brainwashing would possibly take exception too. I
was listing out the most biased "facts," to open them up to critical
discussion. The goal is not to win an argument or to establish moral high
ground, it is to understand the issues and help solve them. (and note that my
"solutions" have gotten very little disagreement from either side, and even
some praise from the pro-Palestine side)
You have been exemplary in your response.
1. Which people cheered on the streets on 9/11?
a) Israelies
b) *Palestinians*
L:
Actually, it turned out that this was footage of anotehr event, on file,
and that it started being shown in conjunction with 9/11. But I was taken in
at the time, too.
R:
I have surfed the net extensively on this one and find nothing but support
that Palestinians cheered. Even the Pro-Palestine positions address it with
apologies and commentary that it was the work of fringe elements.
2. Who, in 2000, refused an offer to give the Palestinians 97% of the
westbank -- in a contiguous area -- shared control of Jerusalem, a capitol
in Jerusalem, and the right for Palestinians refugees everywhere to return
to the new homeland?
a) *Arafat*
b) Barak
L:This was actually in 2001. This was a niggardly 'offer,' though, yes, it
was the most 'generous' one yet offered by Israel. It does not provide for
the creation of a viable Palestine, and failed to honor several past
agreements in principle, e.g. the Oslo Accords. Many other key issues were
not resolved during those negotiations, and the talks broke down over
several issues, not just the one you cite.
The situation is not one in which the Israelis can simply make offers
and the Palestinians are obligated to accept them. The two are at war, and
only cooperative negotiations can end it. Both sides will have to compromise
significantly if these negotiations are to be successful. Neither can impose
a solution on the other.
R:
All Arafat had to do was present his counter-offer. I am convinced that
Arafat does not want peace or a separate state. He wants the whole
enchilada. Again, I am not throwing this out as a moral judgement (and I
realize some powerful Israelis have the same view toward Palestine), I am
throwing this out as something to consider in working toward a solution. I
believe that Arafat will not agree to any partial state, and therefore any
independence must be granted absent his approval. If something later changes
my view, then I will adapt my philosophy accordingly.
3. True or false -- Palestine was a British mandate given to Jews and
Palestinian Arabs after WWI from the remnants of the Turkish Empire?
a) *true*
b) false
4. 80% of Palestinian land is in which country?
a) *Jordan*
b) Israel
5. Prior to Israeli occupation, the West Bank and Gaza Strip were
controlled
by..
a) The free state of Palestine
b) *Jordan and Egypt*
L: Yes, after the israei seizure of much of Palestine, Egypt took over the
administration of the Gaza Strip, and Jordan the West Bank. They both did so
with explicit agreement of the Palestinians and explicit statements that
they were NOT asserting sovereignty over those two areas. Indeed, both
governments have periodically reasserted this, and their national maps did
not show those areas as a part of their sovereign lands. No mistreatment,
and no complaints by the Palestinians that Egypt and Jordan did anything
improper.
R:
If the goal is truly an independent Palestinian state, then why aren't they
demanding it from Jordan too? Why didn't they demand it when they were
annexed by Egypt and Jordan from 1949 to 1967? My conclusion is that this is
about something quite separate from statehood. On the other hand, I believe
the solution IS to create an independent state. What makes it difficult is
that we will never get a voluntary agreement on the details of this state IF
the parties to the agreement all don't really want a solution. Granted, I am
being cynical, but there is very little down side. If Arafat suddenly
changes his stripes, and starts negotiating, I would recommend he be invited
in. My recommendation is simply DO NOT ASSUME ALL PARTIES WANT PEACE,
COEXISTANCE AND STATEHOOD.
6. Israel occupied these two areas because...
a) They attacked peaceful arab neighbors in a land gr! ab
b) *They captured it in a battle while defending themse! lves from
attempted
arab annihilation*
L:The Gaza Strip and West Bank were seized by Israel in 1967 in a war that
Israel initiated, not the Arab countries. In 1973, Egypt did attack Israel,
but in the end this did not affect the West Bank or Gaza demarcations.
R:
So, Egypt DIDN'T announce on May 16th and 19th of 1967 that they would
annihilate Israel? Egypt DIDNT demand UN troops leave Gaza? Nasser DIDNT
say on May 27th that "the basic objective will be the destruction of Israel"?
Egyptian, Iraqi and Saudi forces weren't sent to Jordan? Nasser DIDNT
declare his intention to block Israeli shipping? Yes, Israel launched a
preemptive strike. They did not initiate this war.
7. Which people have textbooks teaching their children that another
religious
group is evil and must be killed?
a) Israelis
b) *Palestinians*
L:
Now, this one we have talked to death.
R:
Again, I have dozens of sources that indicate that such textbooks exist in
various Arab nations. I also have seen some rebuttals from the Pro-Palestine
side that explains away the issue by stating they were using old Saudi
textbooks and that the teachers taught around it. My point again is not that
anyone is unbiased, or that this means the Palestinians are bad. It is that
we need to acknowledge that there is an active goal to destroy Israel that
must be understood when building solutions. Can you really deny this?
8. Whose government-run newspaper ran a headline praising Adolph Eichman
with
"The Honor of Killing 6 Million" people?
a) America's
b) *Saudi Arabia's*
Don't know about this. Citation. please?
R:
Here is one source:
Historically, the <A HREF="http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/islam.html">Islamic</A>
world's orientation to <A
HREF="http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/genocide.html">genocide</A> against <A
HREF="http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/jews.html">the Jews</A>
has not been limited to idle phrasemaking. Even before <A
HREF="http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/israel.html">Israel</A> came into
existence in <A HREF="http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/warindep.html">1948</A>, on
November 28, 1941, the Grand <A
HREF="http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/islam.html">Mufti</A> of <A
HREF="http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/jerusalem.html">Jerusalem</A>, Haj
Amin, met in Berlin with Adolph Hitler. The subject of their meeting was "the
final solution of the <A HREF="http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/jews.html">Jewish</A>
Question". This meeting, which followed Haj
Amin's active organization of <A
HREF="http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/islam.html">Muslim</A> SS troops in Bosnia,
included the <A HREF="http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/islam.html">Mufti</A>
's promise to aid German victory in the <A
HREF="http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/war.html">war</A>. Later, after <A
HREF="http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/israel.html">Israel</A>'s trial and
punishment of Nazi <A HREF="http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/war.html">war</A>
criminal Adolph Eichmann in 1961, Iranian and <A
HREF="http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/arabs.html">Arab</A>
newspapers treated the mass murderer as a "martyr", and congratulated him for
having "conferred a real blessing on humanity" by liquidating six million <A
HREF="http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/jews.html">
Jews</A>.
- Louis Rene Beres
Professor of International Law
Department of Political Science
Purdue <A HREF="http://www.adl.org/frames/front_schooled.html">University</A>
9. Which side of the struggle pays $25 to $50K to the families of
suicide
bombers that kill mothers and children?
a) Jews
b) *Arabs*
L: I believe this is correct, but don't have primary source knowledge. It
is fo course, contentious to specify that 'mothers and children' are the
victims, when men are as well. or is a man's life not worth as much as a
woman's, in your view?
R:
I think the point is obvious.
10. A representative of which country boasted that the final solution to
the
middle east problem was in getting nuclear weapons?
a) Israel
b) *Iran*
L: Didn't know this. I would have guessed Saddam Hussein. I wonder to
what
extent the Israeli possession of nuclear weapons makes the ASrabs feel they
too must 'get one.' This is all so sad. I am thinking of your 'millions
dead' scenario.
R:
Scary!
11. Whose covenants of 1968 specifically state that "the establishment
of
Israel is fundamentally null and void" and that it "is a national
duty....to
purge the Zionist presence."?
a) *Palestine's*
b) France's
L: Correct. You do not note that this part of the Palestinian National
Covenant has been eliminated.
R:
My fear of course is that the animosity responsible has NOT been eliminated.
12. Whose geography maps in school don't show Israel?
a) *Palestinians'*
b) Turkey's
L: Please note that the website you referred me to, also indicates that
Jewish fundamentalist textbooks fail to show Palestine on their maps, and
show Israel all the way to the Jordan river.
R:
Yes, factions on both sides do not want peace or coexistance.
13. Palestinians are denied employment, healthcare and government
services
in...
a) Israeli occupied territories
b) *Lebanon*
L: Wrong. Palestinians had all of this in Lebanon. They ARE refugees
there, and so do live in poor conditions generally, but not as a result of
government policies. Lebanon has provided a great quanity of services to the
Palestinians in kind -- municipal services, utilities, etc. Check out the
UNWRA records (the UN refugee agency that has kep meticulous records over
the decades.) It is true that no host government has wanted to take the
large numbers of refugees in as permanent residents, and that they are
viewed, in there numbers, as a social burden. But hundreds of thousands of
Palestinians work gainfully in their host countries, and indeed in some have
become full players in the economy.
Again, no mistreatment, and, again, none alledged by the Palestinians
themselves.
R:
The attached summary prepared by palestinians in Lebanon seems to contrdict
your statements.
http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/PRRN/papers/ajial_center/ngo_lebanon.html
By the way, your statement is not correct that no nation wanted to take large
numbers of refugees. Israel absorbed the hundreds of thousands of Jews that
became refugees of Arab lands as a result of the Arab goal to eradicate
Israel.
14. Who ethnically cleansed (deported) hundreds of thousands of
Palestinians
about a decade ago?
a) *Kuwait*
b) Israel
L: The term 'ethnic cleansing' means killing a population, genocide, or
exile. At the time of the US/Kuwait counter-attack on Iraq, some
Palestinians supported Iraq, who they viewed as their major political
supporter at the time. The Kuwaitis were furious, as you can imagine, and
expelled Palestinians who worked there, including some who had been there
for decades and had come to think of themselves as Kuwaitis. This was a
great hardship, but not, IMO, inappropriate. Palestinians were expelled,
not killed. BTW, this is a pattern that the Palestinains have experienced
before: their poltiical activism become a thorn in the side for their host
governments, tension mounts, and sometimes boils over into trouble: Jordan,
Lebanon, Egypt, and Kuwait had this experience.
But it isn't mistreatment. I am sure that those who would wish the
issue of the Palestinians to 'go away' find comfort in the argument that the
Arab countries have 'failed' to assimilate the Palestinian refugees who
fetched up in their countries; you will understand the shared insistence of
the Palestinians and Arab countires that the Palestinians be able to return
to Palestine.
R:
Deportation isn't "mistreatment"? (btw, I agree that the ethnic cleansing
moniker is too biased in my statement. My bad.)
15. Who provides sanctuary and support for some of the most wanted
terrorists
and suicide bombers and also celebrates murderous martyrdom?
a) Clinton
b) *Arafat*
L: I don't know about 'celebrates', but generally, this is correct. There
is no doubt in my mind that Arafat at least implicitly condones it. Please
note that this is what happens in insugencies:
R:
I think the admittedly biased facts listed above (all 15) lead one to the
conclusion that we must be very suspicious of attempts to oversimplify this
struggle to one of statehood and co-existance. What is needed is a
TRANSITION to a situation where Palestinian STATEHOOD is a fact. Once they
have a nation, the factions that want Israel (or Palestine) destroyed will be
unable -- or at least less able -- to couch their hate in noble terms. People
-- on both sides -- can choose whether to hate or to live.
Rog
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