Greetings Elliot, John and All,
>Elliot wrote:
"Words do determine your experience. "
Glen replies:
I think the MoQ is quite clear in saying that individuals can access
dynamic quality, say by sitting on a hot stove. You will not translate
this into words and then move, you experience a low quality situation
and act accordingly. The very dynamicness of the event cuts through
any static intrepretations.
>Elliot wrote:
"But how different would your experience be if you did not differentiate
past from present from future? regardless, language does determine your
experience (or your thoughts of experience) amd the goal of mysticism
is to forget the words and the concepts, to stop thinking, and just
experience."
Glen replies:
Again I think that language is useful to analyze our experiences but
does not determine what experiences we have. I can't put
'blue' into words and even if I did not distingush blue from green
I do not think the name I choose would alter the actual experience
itself. Language certainly restricts how we can communicate with others
and/or analyze our experience but the flow of dynamic quality is always
there. My own experience has been that being in very dynamic situations
is tramatic, very tiring and possibly not productive even if it was
thrilling, fun and interesting. The problem that language may present
us with is the same as all static patterns, inflexibility. When a pattern
become so inflexibile that it fails as a tool of communication or
analysis then it should be altered. I do not understand what you mean
when you say stop thinking. Do you equate thought with language? That
strikes me as a very strange idea.
>> Glen wrote:
"The goal of the mystical experience is to get beyond thought? Or is it to
get beyond thoughts that can be communicated?"
>Elliot wrote:
"It is to get beyond thought, which is a static pattern. Most thoughts i
think cant really be communicated, or atleast not very accurately. But
thought its self is division of the fundementally undivided, it brings up
objects and subjects."
Glen replies:
Perhaps now I understand what you mean. I see
thought/consciousness/sentience as being so closely related as to make
dividing them impossible. A static pattern is required to gain experience.
While one event may seem very much more dynamic I doubt if there is such an
event as a experience of dynamic quality and nothing else. Thoughout the
peyote experience Pirsig's body did not dissolve (although Pirsig may have
thought it did! ;) ) and this would at least provide some kind of static
pattern with which to gain experience.
>Elliot wrote:
"Finnaly id like to say that the MoQ is a very strong metaphysics because it
does stress experience beyond all else. But if pure knowledge from
experience is to be gained, somewhere way down the path, finnaly the MoQ
itself must be given up as a static pattern. But that is the last thing
that must be given up i think, and the MoQ can help for the majority of the
journey."
Glen replies:
I have no problem dumping the MoQ as soon as I find something better.
>Elliot wrote:
"It is a good map, but the chasm at the end of the path is
uncharted, and one must abandon even the map to get to the heart of
everything."
Glen replies:
Now you sound like a mystic!
>Elliot wrote:
"I think we dont dissagree on the quality of MoQ as a
metaphysics, but i do dissagree that any doctrine (static pattern) will
lead to transendance of static patterns. MoQ is a discription and it is a
burden to experience to fit everything into its divsions, because as i say,
the world is fundementally undivided."
Glen replies:
What about 'addition'? It's unbounded but still a pattern.
>Elliot wrote:
"Are there techniques for achieving enlightenemnt? yes. They are not static
patterns of thought or doctrine, there are koans designed to destroy
logical thinking and catagorization."
Glen replies:
It's fascinating the power you ascribe to language. You say it is a real
hinderance to experiencing reality and then want to employ it to break free
your mind free of language?
>Elliot wrote:
"The students progress is based on his own experience and understanding of
the indescribable (judged by his facial expressions and tone of voice),
not on his understanding of teachings. I refer here mostly to Monastic
Buddhist practices (for zen monks) and the books by carlos castaneda
(about the teachings of the sorcerer Don Juan). They have no map, no
static method of teaching."
Glen replies:
In all honesty I think you are kidding yourself. I think these teachers
do have a map and do have a pattern to what they teach even if it is not
articulated and not transmitted. This is not to say that I think the
experience of being a student of these teachings is not transforming and
even valuable. I would urge a lot of caution in attempting to implement
the practices of Mr. Casteneda. Unless you really know what your doing
(or really value living dangerously), Datura/Jimsom Weed is not a user
friendly
interface.
Glen
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