On 24 Apr 2002 at 9:48, Rob D wrote:
> Hey Bo,
> I must say that I beg to disagree. And I must clarify, I speak from
> an
> interpretation of the MOQ similar to your own. That what goes on
> inside the brain is a new level rather than what the brain is. The
> MOQ, for example, is the next step above S-O logic as a level. To
> truely understand quality, however, is something that doubt human
> beings (on their own) are capable of. What is to blame for that I do
> not know, be it cultural, or mental horsepower limitations. We have a
> limited Depth.
Rob and All
The ....what goes on inside the brain(is a new level rather) /what the
brain is ...sounds rather subjective/objective but let's not pick nits:-).
> > Bo: Computers are already surpassing our capacity by
> > light-years but still tools for the intellectual level - represented
> > by us.
> Computers have not even skimmed the surface of the computing power of
> the human mind. Even the analog data stream (sights sounds, smells,
> tastes, touch sensors) organized by a conciousness is way more than a
> computer today could deal with. On the level of conciousness,
> computers are still on the "ant" level. An analogy could even be made
> with a single cell. Where the human brain is composed of billions of
> cells linked inexplicably and ingeniously. People will soon learn how
> it works though.
Of course you are right, what I meant to say was that the computing -
perhaps calculating - capacity ......etc. About the abilities of a living
organism's I more than agree with you, but has this anything to do with
"consciousness"? (if you mean it in the "self-consciousness" sense).
Certain animal senses are so much better than our own (this very
moment a bird is on my lawn, it cocks its head and listens intently and
after a moment pulls an earthworm up!) At least this has little to do with
the difference between the SOM and MOQ approach to AI.
> > Bo:There will never be any I-am-a-computer "awakening"
> > because this inner dialogue (I am a human being) is no God's Eye view
> > rather intellect looking down on existence from its perch.
> AI, artificial intelligence IS A MIRROR of the human intellectual
> level in the mind of a computer. We put it there, it is us, for now,
> but maybe not forever.
Here I beg to differ. Intelligence (in the above abilities sense) may
some day be developed artificially, but the intellectual level can only
be reached by way of the social and biological levels (inorganic goes
without saying:). Hope you don't mind me saying so, but you seem to
be in the Frankenstein tradition: If a replica of a brain is assembled it
will spring to consciousness but this is the mind-from-matter chimera.
Such a "brain" (with artificial senses attached) may well show biological
"consciousness", but the social and intellectual "consciousnesses" still
lack.
> I have recently programmed a robot to see light, IR , detect bumps
> and
> various Frequencies, and communicate with other robots all in a giant
> conciousness loop as it wandered around a maze. It could see the
> light! The CPU sat and detected these things, it was completely
> focussed on that. But how can one say that Organic life is any more
> sophisticated if, like an insect, it behaves in a programmed manner
> according to stimuli in the REAL (experiencable) world? And HOW can
> you say that it is impossible to have AI conciousness if you have
> never experienced anything close to it?
Regarding the first question. An higher organism is more
sophisticated, but (biologically) not principally different from the lowest,
it's the social and intellectual levels that makes the difference, and here
the q-social is as important as q-intellect, the last no "ascension" to a
mind realm as in SOM. The program vs freedom is imposed on us by
SOM's premises while the MOQ approach is that the levels are an
increase in ...in "programs" (if the SOM load of that term could be
suspended? However, only with the social level did existence become
influenced by something principally else than proliferating and survival,
and with the intellectual level there was another principal jump ....to a
level that may be called freedom. In the MOQ there is no either/or
(program/freedom) but a gradual rise OF BOTH with no upper limit.
The second question:
> And HOW can you say that it is impossible to have AI conciousness if you have
> never experienced anything close to it?
... I may never have experienced consciousness - artificial or "natural".
As said I believe the consciousness to be a hoax? A god-like view of
existence. See the "sleep" part at the end.
> One thing I took out of that robot course and spending 4 months
> working on
> it was that it seems like GOD was an engineer, and that to design a
> human would have taked Millions of years, we didn't even skim the
> surface of what a human can do. Maybe my expereince has tainted me,
> BUT the potential of this thing is amazing. It's a matter of symmetry
> and consulting the human brain for ingenious engineering solutions.
I agree with the time scale aspect, but the God an engineer ....? Isn't
that the famous eighteenth century watchmake argument ...now he is a
computer programmer.
> > ... in that sense we represent the apex and
> > consequently: A development beyond intellect will necessarily be
> > human.
> True, for now, but will that be forever? My belief if a most
> resounding NO. But mind you, I could be wrong.
Well - again - I have the feeling that no amount of ingenious wiring (the
wiring may even be "biological") will bring about consciousness
....because there is no consciousness!!!! Consciousness is a SOM
ghost! There is awakening in the morning from sleep, but it's not to any
god-like awareness, but to EXPERIENCE. That goes for all creatures,
and sleeping startes very low down on the biological scale (for some
reason I don't know). A fish wakes up to fish-biological experience while
a human being wakes up to human-biological (wanting to have a pee)
then to social (realizing that it is immoral to be in bed too long) then to
intellectual experience (starting to think about how to formulate a
message to the MD :-Q).
IMO as always.
Bo
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