Hey Bo,
I must say that I beg to disagree. And I must clarify, I speak from an
interpretation of the MOQ similar to your own. That what goes on inside the
brain is a new level rather than what the brain is. The MOQ, for example, is
the next step above S-O logic as a level. To truely understand quality,
however, is something that doubt human beings (on their own) are capable of.
What is to blame for that I do not know, be it cultural, or mental
horsepower limitations. We have a limited Depth.
Bo: Computers are already surpassing our capacity by
light-years but still tools for the intellectual level - represented by us.
Computers have not even skimmed the surface of the computing power of the
human mind. Even the analog data stream (sights sounds, smells, tastes,
touch sensors) organized by a conciousness is way more than a computer today
could deal with. On the level of conciousness, computers are still on the
"ant" level. An analogy could even be made with a single cell. Where the
human brain is composed of billions of cells linked inexplicably and
ingeniously. People will soon learn how it works though.
Bo:There will never be any I-am-a-computer "awakening"
because this inner dialogue (I am a human being) is no God's Eye view
rather intellect looking down on existence from its perch.
AI, artificial intelligence IS A MIRROR of the human intellectual level in
the mind of a computer. We put it there, it is us, for now, but maybe not
forever.
I have recently programmed a robot to see light, IR , detect bumps and
various Frequencies, and communicate with other robots all in a giant
conciousness loop as it wandered around a maze. It could see the light! The
CPU sat and detected these things, it was completely focussed on that. But
how can one say that Organic life is any more sophisticated if, like an
insect, it behaves in a programmed manner according to stimuli in the REAL
(experiencable) world? And HOW can you say that it is impossible to have AI
conciousness if you have never experienced anything close to it?
One thing I took out of that robot course and spending 4 months working on
it was that it seems like GOD was an engineer, and that to design a human
would have taked Millions of years, we didn't even skim the surface of what
a human can do. Maybe my expereince has tainted me, BUT the potential of
this thing is amazing. It's a matter of symmetry and consulting the human
brain for ingenious engineering solutions.
... in that sense we represent the apex and
consequently: A development beyond intellect will necessarily be
human.
True, for now, but will that be forever? My belief if a most resounding NO.
But mind you, I could be wrong.
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of skutvik@online.no
Sent: April 24, 2002 4:44 AM
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: RE: MD AI and the MoQ
Hi Rob (is it Duinker?) and Joao.
On 22 Apr 2002 at 20:09, 8rjd1 wrote:
> A new AI paradigm in reality would not be out of the MOQ though.
But discussing the MOQ a new Artificial Intelligence paradigm will
necessarily be ...out of the MOQ ...where else? The SOM approach is
in deep trouble and haven't moved one iota beyond the Türing Test that
Joao indirectly referred to.
> The
> only reason that people would think that they achieved a new level IS
> BECAUSE they are of higher quality than humans.
The Q-development is not confined to people, but as the social level
only has reached the stage where it could support the intellectual level
among the humans .... in that sense we represent the apex and
consequently: A development beyond intellect will necessarily be
human.
> If that was ever
> achieved, that the AI developed consciousness and comprehended the MOQ
> in ways that us, as solitary human beings never could (superconcious
> human beings are another story however), it would still be simply an
> advance in quality.
Maybe I don't fully understand you Rob, but that taken into
consideration I say: Advance in quality, you bet, but ...A.I. developing
consciousness and comprehend the MOQ... God, my jaw feels numb by
repeating this: There will never be any I-am-a-computer "awakening"
because this inner dialogue (I am a human being) is no God's Eye view
rather intellect looking down on existence from its perch.
All this talk about superminds and superconsciousness is just more
SOM nonsense. Computers are already surpassing our capacity by
light-years but still tools for the intellectual level - represented by us.
> Something we can all understand. What they do with
> a complete map of what quality is and the concepts that grow out of a
> complete understanding of quality, that would be the next level (above
> the quality level) if you really wanted to look that far. I personally
> believe that humans themselves are incapable of understanding such
> things but I am happy in progressing society and technology to achieve
> that level. Rob
Whoa! Above the Quality level? Interesting enough if you see the MOQ
as a level. We must discuss that :-)
See you.
Bo
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