David,
>Glenn, Platt and y'all:
>Platt said:
>Thanks for confirming my claim. Wilber's "it-domain" is objective. His "I
>and we domains" are subjective. Strictly old school divisions.
>
>Glenn said:
>I agree with Platt. This quote doesn't attempt to ground a
>subject/object reality into a third category as Pirsig does. However,
>since science is the hand-maiden of the SOM, perhaps David thinks
>that rants against science, like the one below, are indicative of an
>anti-S/O bias. In fact it is just an anti-O bias.
>
>DMB says:
>Hmmm. Very bizzare. You both seem oblivious to the obvious. Its hard to take
>your objections seriously when it seems that you don't even understand what
>you're reading, but I'll waste some time and provide an answer anyway.
No, it's not bizarre and it's not a product of our poor reading
comprehension. Both Platt and I are pointing out that in the quote you
offered yesterday, Wilber is arguing from a S/O viewpoint. There are
subjectivist and objectivist positions from this viewpoint, and he took
the subjectivists position, not some higher metaphysical ground. The
quotes you offer today are different and actually support your contention.
If you'd provided these quotes to begin with you'd not have wasted *our*
time.
>Glenn:
>Note the over-the-top belief that science has "completely gutted" the
>"entire interior dimensions" followed by the sad-sack resentment of modern
>man. I suppose rhetoric like this is the only way he feels he can attract
>attention. Reasoned, level-headed thinking just won't do.
>
>DMB says:
>If you think Wilber is over-the-top then so is Pirsig, because he says
>essentially the same thing. "the metaphysics of substance...regards both
>society and intellect (subjects) as possessions of biology (objects). It
>says society AND intellect don't have substance and therefore can't be real.
>It says biology is where reality stops. Society and intellect are ephemeral
>POSSESSIONS of reality." (Lila page 265.) And I suppose that Pirsig is
>equally a sad-sack resenter too. "A scientific, intellectual culture had
>become a culture of million of isolated people living and dying in little
>cells of psychic solitary confinement, unable to talk to one another,
>really, and unable to judge one another because scientifically speaking it
>is impossible to do so." (page 283)
Yes, Pirsig is over-the-top about SOM just as Wilber is about scientism.
And yes, both show a sad-sack resentment toward the modern scientific world.
Thanks for the quotes supporting this opinion.
Glenn
P.S. Thanks for the extra Wilber quotes on alien abductions. I don't see
their relevance to what I said about alien abductions, but they were amusing,
especially: "Jung thought UFOs were actually projected archetypes. The UFO
anal probe: where Freud meets Jung."
__________________________________________________________________
Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:02:14 BST