I, Gary said:
>> > Wilber & Koestler are so important. EVERYTHING
IS
> A
> > HOLON! Everything therefore has 6 attributes
> > Internal, external , individual/wholes [this is
> where
> > ZMM comes in], collective/parts [This is where
> LILA
> > addresses] and dynamic, Static [Again from LILA].
>
> > So, do not discount ZMM & Classic-Romantic. If
> you do
> > you are losing an important aspect of the nature
> of
> > individual humans encounter with Quality. Pirsig
> when
> > he wrote LILA was not discarding ZMM but adding a
> new
> > layer.
> --- Platt Holden <pholden@sc.rr.com> wrote:
> Incidentally, "holons"are just another way to divide
> experience--wholes
> and parts. It's typical of Wilber's theories: they
> bring lots of disparate
> ideas together, but (unlike the MOQ) add nothing new
> to what has been
> said before.
>
> Platt
My response:
Sorry Platt, but you don't understand Holons or
continuums. Lets start with the word continuum. In
reality nothing is 100% black or 100% white, in case
you didn't noticed :), you see the world in not pure
abstract black or white, but a continuum of colors
ranging from black 99.9999 to many colors to white
99.999%. The continuum is a non-Aristotelian [null-a]
tool. It is one of those secrets of the universe, a
sort of 'swiss army' knife idea. Multi-purpose!
Pirsig's Quality works as either dynamic - static or
the old romantic - classic , because they are actually
a continuum of descriptions.
You are the one with the problem if you think that a
holon, a new word for a newly recognized concept
[invented by Arthur Koestler is "The Ghost in the
Machine".], is "parts and wholes". There is no "and"
in a Holon! It is a seamless duality! You must know
that a photon is both a particle and a wave prior to
someone observing it. At the moment of observation
the photon takes on the attributes of the observe.
The act of observing determines whether the photon
will be "seen" as either a particle or a wave. When
you analyze a holon the conceptual tool you use to
consider it will make it seem like it is only a part
or only a whole. It is neither.
Platt said:
It's typical of Wilber's theories: they
> bring lots of disparate
> ideas together, but (unlike the MOQ) add nothing new
> to what has been
> said before.
My response: Hey, don't blame Wilber for your lack of
understanding. If you read [Wilber] him and actually
try to understood him, he has been very clear saying
that this is a "new" idea. You just don't get it. Go
back and read "Sex, Ecology, Spirituality". And check
out Koestler's book. Pirsig is not the only human on
the planet to have an original thought. Pirsig is a
genius, but so was Einstein, Koestler, Korzybski, and
I think, even Wilber.
Gary Jaron "People shape, and are shaped by, ideas."
>
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