Willem & others,
--- "W. Beekhuizen" <willem.md@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
> Pirsig states (p. 256): It seems as though a society
> that is intolerant of
> all forms of degeneracy shuts off its own Dynamic
> growth and becomes static.
> But a society that tolerates all forms of degeneracy
> degenerates.
I agree that a system that prevents all degeneracy
will consequently prevent dynamicism. However, having
a free election system allows for degeneracy. The fact
that Fortuyn ran for election, and was not legally
excluded from giving his message, proves that the
Dutch system allows change. An assasin, not social
forces, killed Fortuyn.
> But most of the
> politicians in The Netherlands did become a type of
> technical administrators
> that spoke a peculiar type of governmental Dutch,
> arranging their affairs
> with as litlle interference of the people as
> possible. Most of the
> politicians did not take Pim Fortuyn seriously and
> tried to marginalise him,
> as you do, by comparing him with Hitler. They were
> flabbergasted when he got
> the support of a growing part of the population.
> Some of the politicians now
> admitted that they missed the boat, and even
> admitted that his role was
> useful (even if you did not agree with all of his
> ideas) in waking them up
> and getting them emotional involved. Some of the
> media confessed that they
> were "against" him and did not give him a fair
> treatment.
If most Dutch politicians are hands-off technical
administrators, and have now been shaken out of their
rut by Fortuyn's dynamic presence, that is a quality
improvement. Applaud Fortuyn's presence for waking up
politicians to the need to be more publicly involved.
However, I was making my point on his immoral social
values (discriminatory immigration laws based on
religion), not his poor treatment by the media and his
peers, nor his beneficial effect in the election
process.
If you believe that Fortuyn's election to office would
have been a degeneracy, but that degeneracy is allowed
by the MOQ under the healthy breathing room that
allows dynamic change, then isn't his marginalization
by the media and his assasination just degeneracy that
we have to live with? How can you judge his
marginalization by his opponents as unjust (I take it
you base this moral judgement on the MOQ, and I would
agree that media and political ethics were not
upheld), but yet you view my judgement of his
immigration proposals (based also on the MOQ) as
indicative of a static, know-it-all Zuni priest? By
the way, referring to me as a Zuni priest can only be
taken the wrong way. You are saying I lack the ability
for dynamicism because I am so bound to static values.
If you want to label me as something I would prefer
a-hole over Zuni priest. I think you need to read my
original response again.
Pirsig says, "...a society that tolerates all forms of
degeneracy degenerates". Why can we view murder and
political slandering as a degeneracy that should not
be tolerated, but not prejudice? If we're afraid that
making value judgements will turn us into static Zuni
priests, then can we safely make any that doesn't
inhibit dynamic change? Of course we can. The poor
public treatment (I am not talking about assasins with
guns) of politicians like Fortuyn and Le Pen are
indicative of nothing more than those societies being
pissed off at people trying to use prejudice and other
irrational ideas to gain power. Dutch society is not
going to dry up into some static nightmare because
some of it's members hates prejudice so much that they
are not willing to listen to politicians who use it.
This isn't a case of Zuni priests hanging the heritic
up by his thumbs, this is an example of society not
wishing to degenerate to ideas that have already been
tried and evolved past, at least in some parts of the
world.
-Jason
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