hey bo, thanks for joining the thread,
> > (elliot)I admit the distinction is tricky becuase language is obviously
>a
> > social level thing but the manipulation of language, of words (which
> > are symbols derived from language) into sentances and thoughts is
> > intellectual. This is why i say language is an evolutionary step
> > within the social, because the intellect is implied in its exsistance.
>
>(Bo)No, no, language per se isn't q-intellect. I have no idea when language
>entered existence, but I believe that the Neandertals and Cro-Magnons
>of fifty thousands years ago spoke (the last is that excavations in Spain
>has revealed remains as old as three hundred thousand years with a
>skull like "modern" man and also a voice). These people naturally lived
>in communities, but not developed to the stage of carrying intellectual
>value.
Elliot:
I ask you the same question i asked DMB: How does language exsist if no one
is capable of manipulating symbols to make a sentance? I dont doubt that
Intellect was merely a tool for a period before it became a level of its
own, the point where it became a level of its own is when people started
carring intellectual values. My problem with this is that this social level
didnt begin untill intellect exsisted (even if only as a tool and not yet as
a level). by the way, do you agree with DMB that ants are purely biological
and only late primates and early humans are of the social?
> > (elliot)Also, i'll add that although language and religion are social
>things,
> > to me they seem to have been born from the intel level and were later
> > altered and mediated to become the social things we know now.
>
>(bo)This is MOQ nonsense - with all respect.
Elliot:
respect taken. I see why you think this in the next answer you give,
because you dont accept mysticism as an intellectual pursuit. Religion is a
result of mystical experience, one guy tells his story and everyone listened
and then they stopped questioning it intellectually at some point and it
became doctrine and people performed ritual with no idea why, just as a
social practice. well, this next quote is still my anser to your claim to
its nonsense.
> > (elliot) the
> > Mystic experience (the high point of the intel level as i understand
> > it) seems to be transformed into religious doctrine (and Dao, God,
> > Great Spirit and soul all get confused), not the other way around
> > which your system seems to say. In the same way that mystic
> > experience becomes religion, so personal experiences become language
> > as some intellect must use his knife to cut a piece out of perception
> > and give a name to it, then it becomes mediated and becomes language.
> > not the other way around. I'll say it one last time: Your social
> > seems to me to require the simultaneous exsistance of what i call the
> > intellect.
>
>(bo)Intellectual value won't have anything to do with "mysticism".
Elliot:
Then where does mysticism fit in? With the MoQ's focus on mysticism, where
does the MoQ fit in? Mysticism is clearly not social because it is very,
very personal and notions of society disolve in mystical experience. thus
as intel beings, whatever we do is nessicarily intel (or social or
biological, but mysticism is neither of these). Also, mysticism is
concerned primarily with symbols and our understanding of the world as
symbolic, as "only a description". The intellectual level is not at all
restriced to science and current modes of reason, science and current modes
of reason are actually largely social. Mysticism is the pursuit of
intellectual Quality, where my definition of intellectual is close to
individual (as self is also a symbol for use in manipulation). so, despite
the fact that many western "intellectuals" wont have anything to do with
mysticism, many "non-intellectuals" who are as much a part of the intel
level as anyone have lots to do with it.
Elliot
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