Elliot,
Your vision is certainly grand, and I agree there probably will be a
progression over time toward more rewarding, self actualizing explorations of
Quality in work and play.
Just to clarify though, are you suggesting that the world would be better off
today if people stopped producing things for each other or servicing each
other and instead started... meditating... or reading Chaucer all day?
Are you suggesting people stop serving each other and instead just do what
seems fun or most "rewarding" at the time?
Are you suggesting that people today are generally incapable of intrinsically
enjoying work?
Elliot:
If someone puts in amazing effort for thier entire lives in a job which they
despise for the attainment of material wealth, are they the happiest the can
be? is this how a utopian society would function?
Rog:
Someone who spends their life doing something they hate is a fool. May I
suggest a simpler, less utopian solution? Try to find a job you like and that
you learn and grow in. Modern societies have a wealth of options for those
that are really interested. (and those that despise everything they do have
a personal problem that utopia won't solve either.)
Elliot:
The problem is not with the distribution of the pie but in the quest for pie
itself rather than Qulaity. The revolution then is an intellectual one, one
of individual need structures, not of the social structure.
Rog:
The problem I have is that you seem to suggest that a plumber can't be happy
plumbing or that a motorcycle mechanic can't be happy working on motorcycles.
The Psychologist M. Csikszentmihalyi -- renowned for writing on "Flow" which
is his term for optimal experience, or self actualization -- has shown that
the majority of 'optimal experience' occurs at work.
I agree that the revolution is somewhat of an intellectual one, but I would
side with Pirsig that it is both individual in nature, and dynamic.
Elliot:
Freedom and
happiness imposed by a system is not true freedom (nor dare i say, true
happiness).
Rog:
Scary words. I suggest we let people judge the reality of their freedom and
happiness themselves. I also suggest we allow them to decide if it is
"imposed" by a system, or "enabled."
Attempts to acieve utopia through social structures have been outright
failures ranging from Lenin's vanguard party to the slaughters of Pol Pot...
The ideal
society is in a few words, one where men are free to pursue their personal
goals, not one where commodities are evenly distributed.
Rog:
According to your definition, the world has been very progressive over the
past 122 years, then. During this time, yearly working hours (per person
working) have been cut in half in modern societies -- dropping in every
country over almost every generation with the odd exception of Korea. Over
the past 150 years in the US, men have shifted from 50% of their life
working, to 20% working. Over the more recent 35 years men in the US have
gained about 20% additional "free time" (up to a total average of 43.6 hours
per week) and women have gained an additional 10% (38.7 hours).
Elliot:
"It took Britain half the resources of the planet to achieve its prosperity;
how many planets will a country like India require?" --(Mahatma Gandhi on
the question whether India would reach Britain's standard of living after
independence)
Rog:
What a great quote -- but for the opposite reason Mr Gandhi intended. It is
now well known that there need be no shortage of natural resources when
managed intelligently (important caveat), and no widespread shortages are on
the horizon. Most resources are replenishable, recycle-able, replaceable or
ample in supply. The key again is to manage resources intelligently (and for
people to quit breeding like rabbits).
As for HUMAN resources, I would say his statement is correct. The success of
the British Empire did indeed come from a vast integrated system of
relatively free trade across half the globe. The relative decline of Great
Britain occurred with the abandonment of liberal free enterprise principles.
As for India, in the end it lived down to Mahatma's vision (or lack thereof).
Today, India's standard of living is 10% of Great Britain's. The Indian
economy is in shambles due to excessive taxes and regulations, corrupt
officials, poor courts, a general absence of formal means of financing.
Estimates are that 91% of workers operate in the "black market" to escape the
disfunctionality of the official economy. I can't speak to the "gross
domestic happiness index", but I do note that there are an awful lot of
brilliant Indians coming to the US and other western countries for rewarding
employment and living standards, and virtually nobody moving the other
direction.
Rog
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