Hey erin,
>(erin:)
>There are some animals that I do consider a possiblity for having
>social values (dolphins) but no I do not consider ants having social
> >value. As for the idea of hardwired how does it violate MOQ.
>
>PIRSIG Annotation #44:
>A social pattern which is aware of the next higher level would be
>among prehistoric people and higher primates when they exhibit social
>learning that is not genetically hardwired but is not yet symbolic.
Elliot:
MoQ rejects determinism by saying even sub-atomic particles are sentient
(capable of percieving and responding to values, Quality). Hardwired (into
the brain) to me implies stimulus/response behavior of a deterministic
variety. The MoQ says there is no cause, only patterns percieving and
trying to act in accordance to Quality. "Genetically (or neurologically)
hardwired" is ok if it is understood that what is meant is a perception and
reaction to Quality on a biological level, a reaction to Biological Quality.
With this understanding, we look at the Pirsig annotation (which i have no
context for, sorry, just wainting for the print version, higher Quality in
my opinion). First, Pirsig is talking about human society only, because he
says aware of the intellectual level (thus it already exsists). I recognize
this phase as social patterns with the tool of intellect (not yet
established as its own level, perhaps like when biological patterns had no
way to reproduce, not even asexually). However, does this rule out a social
level that is NOT aware of the intellect which has biochemical ways of
imparting information (hardwired so to say, but not symbolic)?
I pick ants because i want to dispute the borders. Ants are at best
borderline social: their capabilities seems biological, but their biology is
aranged around a social order (hell, they have a queen!), and we all know
social patterns are based on biology. Societies arange themselves around
genetic relationship (biology), they accept kin and reject others of their
species who are to far seperated genetically. this (perhaps first) appears
in ants who will share food out of their own belly with one ant and fight
another to the death based solely on gentic relationship. The ants
themselves distinguish between ant societies, again, based on genetic
relationship. Sticktly biological behavior says (to me anyway) fend off all
that threaten self, and treat all of the same biology equally. amebas dont
pick fights with certain other amebas and then co-operate with others.
Vampire bats pay closer attention to genetic relationship, having different
orders for non-kin food sharing, and may also take other social factors such
as past behavior to develope something close to "fairness" (the vary basic
of which begin in ants and evolve all the way to much more complicated
notions of fairness in humans)
Also, i see the social level as the level of mediation, of making certain
things somewhat universal. Biology does this of corse on a different level,
smell of food prompts desire to eat it. but ants have biochemical
communication which requires a different level of mediation.
Potassium-oxide = follow me, hydrosulfide = jump in the water and die to
make me a bridge. the connection seems of a different order than biological
(food=eat, female=fuck and so on).
But, we get to a point where you have your idea and i mine. Im sure you see
my point and you think it of lower Quality than yours, i see yours and think
that. thats a personal thing and im not trying to convert anyone. I'd be
glad to clarify if you dont see my side, but id just be saying the same
things over and over unless you have a unique question i can address.
We fall like rocks,
Elliot
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