Hi Elliot
>Do you accept wim's notion that social value is unconsious and intellect is
>consious?
Yup
So i ask you, is there a
>difference between genetically hardwired and unconsious?
Yup (to me)
>Do ants act biologically (genetically hardwired), or socially
>(unconsiously)?
biologically (to me)
The line is thin but blurry, i say the opnly way to tell
>the difference is in the types of actions taken. Self preservation vs.
>greatest good for greatest number (even if self sacrifice). Man, the right
>side of the Vs. sounds so social to me...
>does it to you?
Not to me but we went through all this.
My guess is if you isolate an ant until its adulthood and then stick him in
with
his colony I bet you he will know how to all those amazing things you
described.
Why? because it is instinctual, thus biological
Elliot:
well, you wouldnt now would you. if you saw something subjective about ants
then you'd have to be one (our objective observations of ant society is why i
brought up the notion of ant mythos, which seems absurd i know). I agree to
this point which is why i say when we discuss the social we can only discuss
the social which is subjective to us, the one which also includes the
intellectual level.
ERIN: No Elliot I don't know. But by that reasoning this coffee mug on my desk
is on the social level. I mean who knows, it gots a smiley face on it --it
seems so social despite its small stature. (just kidding ya)
I am concluding from what I have heard has been observed about ants.
I said they don't seem to display subjective because they don't
seem to display any behavior that shows they crossed the
hard-wired---symbolic jump.
I agree that the behaviors you describe you seem social but
lets not judge a book by its cover so to speak.
Let me use an analogy.
Proud parents always want to tell you how their little Suzy knows her
numbers and have her count to 30 for you. Their ability is not really genuine
counting but probably more like memorizing a lullaby.
Even though Suzy just said 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14- etc
you ask her which is more 7 or 8 and she has a 50/50 chance in
getting it right.
i can't remember exactly what age they start to get it right, I want
to say 4 yrs of age but the point is much later then they were able to
to "count".
Did Suzy appear to know how to count? yes (to me)
Did she genuinely know how to count? no(to me)
Now apply this to your question
>Isnt that how ants act?
Do ants appear to act socially? yes (to me)
Are these genuine social value level behaviors? no (to me)
Cheers,
Erin
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