Hi Elliot
>Rog:
>But the amount of resources becomes a non-issue since they produce even
>more than they consume (and we already established that the resources in
>question are either abundant and/or replenish-able)
Elliot:
Im sorry, i missed that day when consumption and exploitation of resources
was no longer a problem. The Ozone layer apparently stopped shrinking, and
somehoe there are alot of forests that werent there a while ago. Theres
plenty of oil, hardly any waste and everythings ok. Sorry for the lame
treehugger comebacks but seriously, new technology makes the burden less for
the earth but doesnt alleviate it.
ROG:
The truth is that modern wealthy societies -- the ones you seem to believe
the earth can't sustain -- are the ones that are best capable of sustaining
their population in harmony with the earth and her resources. The data shows
that as income/productivity/consumption rises in a society, that the
environment and the environmental sustainability of the society increases
dramatically. The World Bank Environmental Sustainability Index shows the
exact opposite of what people assume. It is the US, Canada, Germany and the
UK that are on the top of the list and it is the collectivist/totalitarian
countries and the emerging nations that are at the bottom.
I could go on for hours about how the rate of discovery or the pace of
extraction knowledge outpaces the rate of consumption on virtually every
nonrenewable resource. Or how dramatically air and water pollution have been
reduced in modern nations. Or how much better the wealthy nations are at
preserving and protecting and rationing consumption of renewable resources
(forests, fishing populations etc).
The truth is that there is a 5000 year supply of oil (including shale) based
upon known, currently extractable reserves -- more than enough to last us
until we learn to replace current energy processes with cleaner and even more
bountiful sources such as hydrogen.
The truth is that it is the (relatively primitive) transition to agriculture
and basic population growth that tends to lead to deforestation -- especially
clearcutting. Another major contributor is the extremely dirty, destructive
and inefficient 3rd world process of using forest wood as a primary heating
source.
The truth is that modern, free market economies are much more efficient and
environmentally friendly than collectivist or primitive agrarian societies
Overall, the accusation that wealth and western levels of productivity is the
predominant strain on the earth is a myth that leads to all the wrong
answers. The real problem is poverty, overpopulation, stupid exploitation of
resources (the tragedy of the commons) and totalitarianism/collectivism.
HOWEVER, there are still a few major unsolved problems... for example, the
current fear of global warming. Modern societies do need to find
alternatives to fossil fuel energy sources, or face the potential threat of
inadvertently disturbing the earth's temperature. This problem WILL be
accentuated as other countries become wealthier. I suggest intense research
into alternative energy sources.
ELLIOT:
the current system incorporates waste
and inefficency into its mode of action. not everyone in the world can live
like american suburbanites, there is really, really, not enough earth to go
around like that. the suffering of people elsewhere is somehow connected to
the amaziongly high "standard of living" (ammount of stuff) in america and
other post industiral, late capitalist socieites.
ROG:
You have fallen prey to a dangerous yet common myth. You attribute waste and
inefficiency to the least wasteful and inefficient economies, and you preach
for a "solution" that actually makes things worse. The solution isn't low
standards of living, it is HIGH standards. The solution is to help everybody
in the world to become wealthy enough to be able to afford to live in harmony
with the environment and her resources.
There really, really is enough resources to go around.
Rog
PS -- another key is the control of population growth.
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