David and all,
Okay, by continuing to be here I'll do my part and stay within the program.
And I'll do my part and keep my rhetoric more in line with civilized
discussion and polite conversation. But I honestly did confuse your
statement and I actually still am confused. Let's go back to me and your
statement:
>DMB: Gary and all:
>
> Gary's Response: This is nonsense. To equate Pirsig's 4th level with only
> scientific thinking & rationality is just fictitious and false reading of
> the material.
>
> DMB says:
> This is a good example of what goes on way too much around here. Gary's
case
> is just one example of many. I'm not talking about WHAT he thinks, but HOW
> he thinks. I'm angry and frustrated by it and it happens over and over.
I'm
> talking about the distortion of statements and then the refutation of the
> distortion. The equation of the 4th level with ONLY scientific and
rational
> thinking? Nobody said that. Gary's response is to a post where I'd
explained
> that even stone tool making by our pre-human anscestors has been called
> intellectual by scientists who study pre-humans but, I said, its a mistake
> to equate this with rational scientific thinking AND Pirsig's 4th level. I
> don't think they are identical. Its just that rational scientific thinking
> is a very clear example of 4th level thinking. This distortion is no small
> thing. It tends to make our discussion into a big confusing mess.
Gary's response: I'm honestly confused. I don't understand it when you
say:"where I'd explained that even stone tool making by our pre-human
ancestors has been called intellectual by scientists who study pre-humans
but, I said, its a mistake to equate this with rational scientific thinking
AND Pirsig's 4th level. I don't think they are identical." I think you are
saying that the thought processes our PRE-human ancestors go through when
they take a stone and use it as a tool is not identical to rational
scientific thinking and this can not be 4th level activity. I agree.
Pre-humans, by definition stand on the threshold of 4th level MOQ, by
Pirsig's definition.
But, here's a question: What about our human ancestor's who took a stone
and used it as a tool and even manipulate the shape of that stone to make it
in to a better tool, should this be called a type of 4th level MOQ thinking?
It lacks formal sophistication of Einstein's theories of General Relativity,
but in it's essence are they both (the stone shaping and the formulating of
General Relativity) thinking and thus 4th level activities?
My whole spin out in my prior posts was that I did believe the two were 4th
level activities and I thought you didn't. I honestly can't tell if you
agree or disagree. I can read your posts as saying stone shaping is less
sophisticated thinking and scientific theorizing more sophisticated, sort
like charting different historical developments in the 3rd level MOQ.
Then I re-read your post and it seems you are saying that the two types of
thinking are not 4th level activities. That only one of them can be called
"intellectual". When you say only one could be intellectual are you using
the word "intellectual" to mean something like
rational-scientific-formal-philosophizing thinking? Or are you using the
word "intellectual" as I believe Pirsig does to mean 3rd level activities?
I think the two definitions are not the same. Pirsig's usage is very broad
and encompassing, it includes the other definition but adds a lot more kinds
of activities. For an example, 3rd level activities can be either Classic
or Romantic. What we are doing in writing these emails is very Classic.
When I listen to music I am having a Romantic experience. For me the two
are both 3rd level activities.
So, I am honestly confused as to what you are writing. I am not trying to
rummage through your words in the hopes of starting a fight. But my poor
quality rhetoric did not help any of this.
Being more civilized but still confused,
Gary
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