Elliot:
Spring comes and grass grows by itself.....and old ch'an/zen saying about
enlightenment. Many have said that "effort" and "reasoning" only trap you
on the path...
val
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of elliot hallmark
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 1:59 AM
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: Re: MD What is SOM?
andre,
> > Dont get me wrong, i like daoism alot and i didnt
> > mean to put it down in my
> > previous posts. I'll say this, as a mythology which
> > points to the moon it
> > is the same as MoQ.
>
>The Tao is a direct experience, a lifestyle. Why you
>call it a mythology is strange.
Elliot:
And daoism is a mythology, regardless of what the Dao it claims to point to
is. would you say the MoQ isnt a mythology because it is about Quality
(direct experience), or that chritianity isnt because its about God (Love,
experience)?
>Taoism is a teaching to bring about a change of
>consciousness ... not an intellectual persuit, like
>chess or math. If [and its a huge IF] a bang on the head could achieve the
>same thing, it would be just as good. So... my point
>is ... how is a bang on the head an "intellectual
>pattern"?
Elliot:
You show me a bang on the head that brings enlightenment and i'll, i'll,
well, i'll bang myself on the head till i become enlightened. Enlightenment
may have a biological pattern beneath it but it would be a lucky hit to
rearange the biological social and intellectual levels to the point of
enlightenment. Enlightenment is reached through grappling with the
paradoxes of reason untill reason itself is trancended (yet retained).
What is a change of consiousness if it isnt dealing with the most current
and highest evolved (as far as we know) form of consiousness? we must go
through and past reason, transcend not ignore it. Chess is a game, math has
beauty, do you think your closer to enlightenment for pretending math is
ugly and equating the highest level of freedom with games?
>I think you are seeing everything in terms of MoQ
>these days ... fair enough. Do you see enlightenment
>looming?
Elliot:
Well, while im grappling with reason and experience is banging your head
against a wall helping you? Is that concusion starting to dissolve samsara?
my path is not confined to the map of the MoQ, i blaze my own trail as we
all must. as infants exersize their biology to progress from crawling to
walking, i will exercise my intellect so that one day i may myself walk the
path of enlightenment instead of floundering on the ground in a cloud of
dust and ignorance.
>What is the point of MoQ? Is it an empty intellectual
>persuit ... or is it no different from the Tao in that
>it is a consciousness altering teaching. Does it make
>a claim to be anything? Mental masturbation?
Elliot:
I've never heard a daoist or buddhist teacher claim that enlightenment didnt
require alot of mental work. The writings of Wonhyo are a very logical
although they tend to trancend our understanding of logic, as do koans and
many other teachings. So if we're dealing with enlightenemnt which must
transcend and include reason, why not use a text which grapples with the
cutting edge of reason rather? beucase you like the poetry of daoism more,
fine. but lets not pretend the MoQ is intellectual masturbation, it deals
with reason inorder to transcend it.
Enlightenment is beyond reason, not below it. it is not a lifestyle. it
requires effort, not physical effort but...
...but you know, using that lump on your shoulders for something other
than a battering ram?
Sorry if i got a little offensive there. the attacks are aimed at
misconcpetions i have of your ideas, not at you.
best of luck,
Elliot
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