Hi Scott,
I believe that the 4th level is the place where the
individual mind of an individual human exists in
Pirsig's organizational scheme.
The 3rd level is the repository of collective activity
of groups of individuals. It is what is accepted as
culture for each society. No emotional responses
existed at the 3rd level, only individuals have
emotions. though you can metaphorically say a group
as in a "mob" is acting with one motivation,
rage or anger or lust, etc. This would be only
metaphorical language. Only a individual person has a
emotion. There is no group mind. No group thought.
there are accepted cultural ideas, beliefs, laws,
norms, etc. These can be recorded and these records
are part of the external evidence of a culture and
hence a 3rd level.
The ideas of "liberty", etc are 3rd level
social norms. But as a concept or a belief in a human
they are socialized into a individual and thus become
an idea held in a human individual mind which means a
4th level.
The difference between 3rd and 4th is the difference
between individual mind and collective culture. 4th
level is always internal mental processes. As I think
of what to write on this email, the thinking is 4th
level, the act of "publishing", the typing and
the sent email is a external 3rd level act and thing.
4th level only exist as mental internal stuff of a
singular person. 3rd level can exist as internalized
mental stuff within a single person or as external
products of one or more humans.
When a single human has a new idea or new point of
view that first exists at the 4th level. When it is
expressed in print or by speaking it is a public event
and thus has entered the 3rd level social. The
listeners/readers on their 4th level think about the
new ideas. Then they take actions. Those actions are
3rd level events. whether a society will or will not
change is a 3rd level challenge that goes on first in
the minds of individuals [thus 4th level]. What those
appointed upholders of the society (teachers,
ministers, elective officials, whatever) decide to do,
the actions they take, once those acts are
communicated it becomes a 3rd level event.
The difference to be redundant is that 4th level exist
only within the mind of a single person.
3rd level is the socialized ideas &
linguistic/symbol systems of a culture and thus
existing within a human mind and it is also all inter
activities amongst humans. It is everything we would
call culture.
My scheme [& I believe Pirsig's scheme] follows
the process of events, always asking where do they
take place. Hence the use of terms such as internal
activities and external activities.
4th level is mind. All the other levels are
theoretically public events, process, things,etc.
Stuff that can be examined by the senses or augmented
senses.
Only the 4th level mind can not be seen by the senses.
You have to inquire to find out what is going on
inside a mind.
Hope this helps.
Gary
--- Scott R <jse885@spinn.net> wrote:
> Gary,
>
> I accept that one cannot completely separate
one's
> thinking from one's
> emotions, though the word "emotion" may
need to be
> expanded. Love of
> wisdom is not the same sort of thing as social
love,
> and the joy of
> finding the solution to a tricky problem is not
the
> same as the joy of
> getting revenge on an enemy. But anyway,
>
> You mention as examples:
> "People are willing to die for ideas such as
> 'freedom', 'liberty', 'free
> enterprise', not because of their dictionary
> rational definition. It is
> the emotional value that fills them with passion.
> Our values came to us
> by socialization, the incorporation of ideas from
> people who were care
> givers, our parents, teachers, etc. These people
> gave us love and
> attention and we felt emotionally connect to
them.
> The ideas they
> taught us were thus coated with the same
emotional
> context. That is why
> we feel what we do."
>
> I assume you mean these as examples of the
struggle
> of the intellect
> over the social. This may be, but I do not
consider
> them examples of
> static intellectual patterns of value. They are
> static social patterns
> of value. That is, they are trying to establish
> social conditions for
> freedom, etc. The intellectual level, on the
other
> hand, is what one
> does within the conditions that allow for them.
> Intellectual level
> patterns are recognized by one's relative
detachment
> from socialization.
> So, again, I don't see how your scheme (that all
of
> mind is the fourth
> level) makes the difference that makes a
difference.
> After all, if we
> were all brainwashed by an Orwellian system, all
our
> thoughts and
> emotions would be on the fourth level, by your
> criteria.
>
> - Scott
>
>
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