Hi Bo,
The 4th = mind, hence all internal to a single human.
The 3rd level has both a internal and exteranl
component. All the stuff that is internalized through
socialization and becomes the accepted norms and
values we beleive and the linguistic system we think
in, all this is internal 4th level stuff but it came
from society which is 3rd level.
I see 3rd level as the public arena. the interactions
of human beings.
Once a human communicates a 4th level emotion or
thought that act is a social event/act and it is 3rd
level stuff.
4th level is all internal mind.
3rd can be accepted culture within a human mind, hence
4th level and then all public interactivities of
humans.
Does this make sense?
gary
--- skutvik@online.no wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2002 at 16:56, Gary Jaron wrote:
>
> > I am waiting for your further response. I'm
> hoping Bo
> > and John will also put in their "two cents". I
> write
> > with conviction in the hope of getting clarity and
> > challenging thinking back at me. The give and
> take of
> > the process brings us to clarity of our opinions
> even
> > if not bringing agreement.
>
> Hi Gary ...and Scott!
> I dropped out because you tended to treat the MOQ as
> just some thin
> pretext for your own message, and also found that
> Scott acted a better
> advocate. Now, the accusation of "own message" may
> backfire on this guy,
> but I claim that mine is no such because I don't
> question the levels or want
> to reshuffle them or weed out one or more, or that
> everything is REALLY
> "intellectual patterns" or that something called
> "memes" suddenly appears
> or ...or ...the countless modification that people
> have suggested.
>
> > My assertion of mind=4th level is based on a
> brief 1
> > hour effort to see if I could find language by
> Pirsig
> > that defines the 4th level.
>
> That - what we call - mind is equated with
> intellectual patterns is Pirsig's
> definition of MIND, but his definition of Intellect
> ...? Well, I believe it's that of
> a "realm of ideas", a definition that comes close to
> "thinking" something that
> would leave mankind before the development described
> in ZAMM without
> mental capacity. Yet, maybe I am in a rut of my own
> here, I know that Pirsig
> connects Jaynes' bicameral idea to the development
> of the intellectual level.
> That the social reality (when THAT was top notch)
> was one where "thinking"
> and "voices in the head" was one and the same
> ...and that's correct:
> thinking is silent language.
>
> This (silencing of language) would be intellect's
> conception (still in the social
> womb "..in the service of its parent") but slowly
> this "cuckoo" took over and
> kicked its social siblings out of the nest. By its
> rules of grammar and syntax
> it seemed able to create a reality of it's own
> ...it DID create one .... and the
> rest is history. This view justifies both Pirsig's
> "realm of ideas" definition and
> my own that the full-fledged intellect is the
> subject/object divide, because
> when this level took over in earnest it's first task
> was to the severe its
> umbilical cord. Social value became the despised
> "subjectivity" while itself
> was objectivity (which is another name for reality)
> while we from the Q point
> of view sees intellect as S/OM.
>
> > My investigation was not
> > definitive but was illuminating. Hence my
> tentative
> > assertion of a conclusion. It does make sense to
> me.
>
> OK, but "mind=4th" raises the issue of how SOM is
> to be integrated into the
> MOQ. Pirsig says that the two lower may be
> considered "objects" and the
> two upper "subjects", but if mind (of SOM) is the
> 4th level, what about the
> 3rd one? Isn't that supposed to be mind too? How do
> you see that? If the
> first makes sense to you the second must also be
> considered.
>
> What does Scott "think"?
>
> Bo
>
>
>
>
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