Hi Marco (Wim mentioned)
You said (to me):
> let me jump in, please. I've been awaked by your IMO gross
> misinterpretation of the Sophists. I find myself in a terrific
> disagreement with your imagine of them as "the defenders of social
> value" against the Socrates/Plato/Aristotle gang defenders of the
> intellectual value. IMO more than one evidence tells the exact
> opposite! Tell me, what is more social, the "man [and NOT mankind!!!]ic
> measure of things" of the Sophists or the "Ipse Dixit" of the
> Aristotelians? The Sophists, Protagoras especially, would perfectly
> fit in our last century: man as the measure of all things is a very
> post-modern sentence. But, that's more important, their idea of arte
> is (according to Pirsig) just what we need to save us from the post-
> modern chaos.
The MOQ wasn't worked out to the final form in ZAMM, yet a comparison
can be made with care. The Sophists were P's heroes because they taught
QUALITY as he interprets them, my social value connection was a bit
premature (see later). First a summary up to where they enter the scene.
The philosophers of old struggled to find the Immortal Principles. With
Parmenides the first silly-sounding entries (water, fire, air etc) reached the
stage of the ONE which is separate from appearance and opinion. Pirsig
says: "... the importance of this separation and its effect upon subsequent
history cannot be overstated. It's here that the classic mind for the first time
took leave of its romantic origin and said that the Good and the True are not
necessarily the same and goes its separate way. Parmenides had a listener
named Socrates who carried his ideas into fruition."
Now, enter the Sophists who said that all principles, all truth are relative,
man is the measure of all things. Socrates did not like this at all, Pirsig says:
"...he is in the middle of a war between those who think truth is absolute and
those who think it is relative. He is fighting that war with everything he has
and THE SOPHISTS ARE THE ENEMY." (p.368).
You will hopefully agree (Wim did) that the said development is the
emergence of SOM, and in the table on page 243 Pirsig says that the new
"classic" age - or SOM - is identical to "intellectual reality". Need I say more?
The finer points of how the Sophists relate to the MOQ of that stage is to be
found on page 368, but - again - if the new classic age is SOM and SOM is
"intellect" and the Static Intellectual Level is the one following the Static
Social Level. Can that be overlooked ...if we buy Pirsig's general outlook?
> And also your point that the new objective worldview of Plato and
> Aristotle replaced a mythological past represented by the Sophists
> does not hold water. If in the ancient Greece someone tried to
> undermine the myths of the past, well, they were the Sophists! At the
> contrary, just Plato used largely the myths to bring on his
> philosophical agenda.
> I have read again the Sophist section last night, but I don't find any
> evidence that RMP would put the Sophists at the social stage. IMO, as
> you allow the intellectual connotation only to S/O thinking, you find
> yourself trapped in a necessary "social" definition of anything
> else... by exclusion, I'd say (and by your own dogma). Then, in a
> sort of acrobatic loop, end your reasoning claiming it proves your
> own starting point.... What a Sophist!!! :-)
As said my declaring the Sophists defenders of social value was premature,
but at least they offended the pundits of the coming S/O-intellectual reality
and that indicated such an interpretation. I look forward to YOUR
explanation why Socrates and Plato hated them ...if you admit that Soc. and
Plat. promoted the SOM? If not you have even more to explain ...at least
regarding Pirsig's presentation.
It was a formidable piece. I have read it all, but as not to get bounced this
must do.
Bo
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