Hi Wim,
Okay, I can buy into the idea that the intellectual level starts when we
acquire the ability of connecting symbols with meaning.
I would tend to propose that the Social level starts with communication.
Social level is the level of social interaction. What do you think of that
definition?
Now with those two as tentative definitions: how far back are these two
levels? And are they two events or again one occurring around the same time
as the other?
I definitely concur on the general outlines of what you are saying. And I
do agree that there is a need to acknowledge the existence of both a
Intellectual level and a Social level. We need them both.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: Wim Nusselder <wim.nusselder@antenna.nl>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: MD Definition of Q-intellect
> Dear Scott and Gary,
>
> Scott wrote 24/8 20:42 +0000:
> 'ability to reflect, to think about things, to *question* one's thinking,
> required a change in consciousness, one that started around 500 BCE, and
so
> that prior to that we cannot say the intellectual level existed'.
>
> This change in consciousness was indeed an important one. According to my
> definitions of the social and intellectual level the intellectual did not
> come into being by 'reflecting' or by 'thinking about thinking' however,
but
> by 'connecting symbols with meaning'. The intellectual level 'is the
> collection and manipulation of symbols ... that stand for patterns of
> experience' in Pirsig's words (footnote 25 in my latest version of 'Lila's
> child').
>
> Connecting symbols (starting with rituals symbolizing 'cosmic order', as
> Pirsig supposes in ch. 30 of 'Lila') with experience (their meaning)
> requires conscious attention. It does not only require a change in
> consciousness, it creates consciousness! Don't you think that this is a
more
> importing change than that of 500 BCE?
>
> A child that can talk but not reflect on what it is saying can communicate
> with an adult and can be aware of the higher quality of what the adult
says
> (and 'means'!). A Greek schooled by Aristotle could communicate with a
> contemporary that had not made that change in consciousness yet. They
might
> even discuss for instance the (intellectual!) value of 'seeking truth'
> compared to religious myths and keeping the connected rituals.
> An early human, just over 'my' brink of the intellectual level, was only
> dimly aware that his rituals (primarily making him/her 'feel' safer) also
> symbolized some 'cosmic order' and that aligning his behavior with this
> 'cosmic order' (both in the ritual and in for instance the hunt that is
> being prepared with the ritual) somehow 'helps', was 'better' than an
> unprepared hunt. He couldn't possibly have communicated this primitive
> intellectual value however to his contemporaries who were not conscious
yet.
> He could only communicate his emotions (his fear changing into trust) to
> them. (These first humans among hominids may because of that have got
roles
> of leader or shaman.)
>
> Now don't say (like -I think- Bo and David B. may do) that 'my' brink of
the
> intellectual level is actually the brink of the social level. Then you
have
> to assign another mayor change, the birth of (rather than a change in)
> culture (patterns of behavior that can be learned and passed on), the role
> of only a minor change inside biological evolution.
>
> Gary repeated 30/8 9:44 -0700 his idea that the social level and the
> intellectual level came into being simultaneously.
> Would you agree, Gary, that these levels AS DEFINED BY ME can't possibly
> have come into being at approximately the same moment of (pre)history?
> Passing on (socializing young ones in) patterns of behavior that are
> important for group survival does not require 'history, mythos, symbols,
> etc.'. These were not there yet at the birth of 'culture' (in my
definition
> of it). It does require -as a minimum- a dim awareness of roles and
status,
> of the distinction between old/experienced and young/unexperienced.
> Do you happen to experience some value in my definitions? (And what are
your
> alternatives?)
>
> With friendly greetings,
>
> Wim
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