Hey Bo and Marco,
BO
> Wim wants to turn Intellect back to the Cro-Magnon era while you [Marco]
think it
> had no effect until 1917! I leave it to you two to have it out with each
other.
RICK
Pirsig's view (be it right or wrong) is that the "birth" of the intellectual
level occurred around the time of Socrates. Intellect didn't just start off
in control of society. It first came into existence and then gradually
increased its influence over the ages.
BO
Once a new level established itself the dynamics shifted to the
new level.
RICK
But the dynamic shift happens gradually, over time. And there's no reason
to believe the dynamic shift is ever truly "complete." As you say...
BO
...all static levels from the inorganic upwards are solid building
blocks that existence must be able to rely on will not shift under it.
RICK
The existence of a higher level is evidence only of the fact that the levels
beneath it are "static enough" to support superior levels. I see no reason
to draw the conclusion that they are completely static. Your scheme would
cast Intellect as the ONLY dynamic level. I believe Pirsig would probably
describe Intellect as the "most dynamic" and the Inorganic as the "least
dynamic."
BO
> No doubt that "evolution" is still around and would have been at work had
> not the social level entered and started to manipulate biology by cutting
off
> unwanted strains and pursuing the wanted ones. After Intellect's arrival
the
> "breeding" has been improved by gene splicing and such so I think life on
> earth isn't developing through its own dynamics any more.
RICK
Society and intellect have gotten their fingers into the pie of
biological evolution, but given that it takes millions of years to see the
product of natural biological evolution, how can you be so sure that
biological evolution isn't still occurring "on its own dynamics" in any
and/or all species?
Social/Intellectual control over nature is ever improving, but far from
complete. To paraphrase the bard: There's more between heaven and earth
that is dreamt of in our philosophies (and metaphysics for that matter).
The very fact the our knowledge about biology and the natural world is
always IMPROVING is evidence that said knowledge is incomplete and
imperfect. Is it that hard to imagine that there are ways in which
biological selection operates that our societies have as of yet failed to
appreciate? Or that the biological and/or inorganic levels may still have a
few dynamic surprises left in them?
BO
> This started with Rick asking if I postulated that the upper level blocks
DQ
> influence on the lower level (including Society after Intellect's
advent), I think
> so...
RICK
I believe it would be more accurate to say that the upper level "attenuates"
DQ's influence on the lower level. With the level of attenuation increasing
over time.
BO
Anyway, an important tenet of the MOQ is that the upper
> value is the one that controls the lower...
RICK
Actually, the important tenet of the MOQ is that it is MORAL when the upper
value is the one that controls the lower. It doesn't say that it is
impossible for the reverse to occur, just that it is immoral.
BO
...and I find it strange if DQ "intervenes" in the static step-stones it
uses to reach new heights.
RICK
Don't think of it as an "intervention" of DQ at lower level. Think of it as
a higher level's failure to control some aspect of DQ at a lower level.
There's nothing in LILA or the MoQ to suggest that DQ cannot be destructive.
it's all good
rick
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