From: Erin Noonan (enoonan@kent.edu)
Date: Tue Oct 08 2002 - 02:36:02 BST
yup our fundamentalists vs their fundamentalists
But I'm sure it is oil i mean all for a good reason.
erin
"People who want to share their religious beliefs with
you almost never want you to share yours with them."
>Steve, Erin and all freedom lovers:
>
>On the wave of patriotism that followed the 9/11 attacks,
>
>Steve said:
>I had a hard time explaining it to her. My first thought was that freedom
>doesnıt really mean anything specific. It is more of a reference to our
>sacred story of the American Revolution that defines the American religion.
>Freedom means George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, the stars and stripes,
>and the Declaration of Independence though not literally freedom from the
>tyranny of kings. (Freedom from tyranny is an interesting ideal for the
>most powerful country in the world.) Saying that the 9/11 attack was an
>attack on freedom is just another way of saying it is an attack on America
>but with religious undertones.
>
>DMB says:
>I think you're quite right. The nation seemed to respond to the grief, shock
>and horror by rallying around that vaugue, inarticulated national religion.
>Bush's statements about how the "evildoers" hate freedom has a powerful
>emotional appeal, but does nothing to address the real issues. I should add
>here that Erin's claims are totally obvious to anyone except a flag-waving,
>Bush-loving Conservative. Bush ain't the sharpest tool in the shed and the
>wave of patriotism that swept the nation stiffled dissent on campus, in the
>media, on capitol hill and everywhere else. I could site a dozen expamples,
>but anyone who has been payiing attention already knows. Its true that
>Islamic fundamentalism favors virtue over the principles of democracy and
>individual rights and has little respect for the seperation of church and
>state, but one can say the same about Christian fundamentalism, which is one
>of Bush's largest constituents. No Republican can win an election without
>them. Ralph Reed is the head of the Virginia Republican party and sat on the
>board of Enron, for god's sake. So the problem with the administrations
>response is that it frames 9/11 as a conflict between religions and
>cultures, with our fundamentalists against their fundamentalists. No matter
>who wins that war, we all lose in either case. The policy they're adopted is
>basically a gentler version of Ann Coulter's idea, which is to "invade their
>counties, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity".
>
>Steve Said:
>Personal freedom in the Libertarian sense is important to Americans along
>with the ³your freedom to swing your fist ends at my nose² adage, but I
>donıt think our ideal of freedom is merely about being able to do whatever
>you want. The child that tries the ³itıs a free country² argument when her
>parents order her to make her bed doesnıt really understand the ideal of
>freedom. Some restrictions on personal freedom exist to increase freedom in
>another sense. So my question is, how would you characterize this ideal of
>freedom? The more cynical among us roll their eyes at the sound of the word
>because they think that it doesnıt mean anything or that we are hypocrites,
>but I think there is something to it, though I donıt know how to describe
>it. I would say that itıs a freedom to be all you can be sort of thing, but
>Iım hoping that someone can clarify it for me. The discussion of morals
>suggests that a morality might be built on the idea of freedom.
>
>DMB says:
>Exactly. There a huge difference between freedom as an intellectual pattern
>and the kind of childish freedom that only means doing whatever you like.
>And yes, freedom and rights both represent a moral principle too. If the
>measure of a culture or an idea is its contribution to the ongoing evolution
>of life, then freedom isn't just something we want for ourselves, its a
>sacred principle that needs to be protected for the benefit of something
>much larger than ourselves. Freedom protects the whole evolutionary process,
>the whole shebang. It protects those dynamic regenerative individuals who
>push the edge of things. That's how the moral issue is built into the
>concept of freedom.
>
>
>
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