Lithien, Glove and Group.
The thread was started by Lithien saying:
> when deep in zazen, it is possible to tap a primal reservoir where our
> animal consciousness resides. could this be analogous to an animal
> reality? these are some of my observations from familiarizing myself
> with this inner presence:
You are right. My opinion is that meditation is an inward journey to
more basic value levels (Intellect is easily left behind; Society
not so easily; the Biology even harder, but possible [it is
claimed that the yogi control metabolism]. If the Inorganic level can
be accessed is the million - question) and not so much encountering
Dynamic Quality. The latter is much too unsettling than to be sought
out deliberately.You went on:
> the animal is conscious of itself but its concept of others or
> separateness from the rest is not "thought" out but instead sensed.
> it relies entirely on sensations. it feels the wetness of the
> rain but doesn't know what rain is. it feels the pangs of hunger
> and satiates it when it eats...although, it may not differentiate
> what it is eating.
I don't know if you have spotted my sequence: Interaction-
Sensation-Emotion-Reason as "representing" (or carriers) of the
various level's value? I agree absolutely with your observation that
SENSATION is Biology's key. Check the rest of the list and see if you
"buy" it.
You go on to say:
> it knows the difference between wet and dry, between hunger
> and satiety, but not between good and evil.......
As a notorious SOM-hunter I must react :-). Of course I see
perfectly what you mean, but MOQ says that there is nothing but
good and evil: "The world order is a moral order"! For instance: At
the Biological level hunger is evil, while satisfying hunger is good
sensation. At the Social level acting egoistical is evil while
acting altruistically is good. At the Intellectual level the idea of
death is evil, while the idea of death's necessity is good.
Consequently a lizard doesn't know the concept "rain" or "wetness"
(intellectually/linguistic/subject-objectively), but SENSATIONS guide
its existence perfectly. If it were to enter the Intellectual level
it would not be a lizard any more, but a human monster (impossible
because the social level is missing). Thanks for an interesting piece
Lithien. (PS. (I would have preferred you dropping the HTML format
;-))
GLOVE
I agree fully with you that only the humans have entered the
intellectual level, but there is something in this passage that I
want to comment:
> however, i cannot help but feel there is something of value that we
> are missing if we just make that assumption and move on. when i go
> camping, for instance, there are millions of bugs...little bugs and
> big bugs, bugs that crawl and bugs that fly. when one happens to
> come close, i watch them and they watch me back. there is no doubt
> of their awareness of me as they hover over me and around me,
> looking at me and accessing my presence. i am aware of them, and i
> judge myself to be self-aware. they are aware of me but i have no
> way of judging whether they are self-aware as well. i get a very
> distinct feeling in my stomach that they are, however.
It is the expression aware that bugs me :-). I don't think we differ
at all, it concerns what I wrote to Lithien above.When you say
....aware of them (the bugs) I'd say ....intellectually "aware" of
the abstract idea...... the grazing cow beside your campground
is "aware" at the SENSATION (biological) level, and if a wasp swarm
comes your way you forget all about abstract bugs and - along with
the cow - flee by sheer biological unpleasantness. But normally - in
peace and quiet - we focus in the Intellectual level and call it
"reality" but it's just one fourth of it.
Glove, you know (and hopefully endorse?) my SOTAQI idea: the "danger"
of seeing Q-Intellect as identical to SOM's "mind" (awareness,
consciousness, sentience, "thinking itself"..etc.). Let me show you
my reasoning in this context. "Unconscious" is obviously not what SOM
means by unaware or insentient. All higher organisms can be knocked
unconscious or anaesthesized and this state is clearly different from
their normal "conscious" one. Also, there's sleep. Even fish sleep,
so when they wake up it must be to a reality different from sleep!
SOM has no explanations for these bizarre questions while the MOQ
says that they wake up to the Biological level. To the world of
SENSATION! (To sensation and EMOTION if a socially developed
creature, and to these worlds plus the world of REASON if a human
being.
You concluded:
> does this throw a monkeywrench into the metaphysics of quality? i
> really dont think so, because i think alot of people mistake
> awareness for intelligence and that is not what the intellect layer
> of the metaphysics of quality is, if i am interpreting it correctly.
> the intellect is Quality's way of creating high value situations for
> all species, from viruses to human beings.
No monkeywrench at all, but your line...... the intellect is
Quality's way of creating high value situations for all species, from
viruses to human beings......hmmm. I would perhaps have
preferred to say: "Reason is Quality's way of creating value at the
Intellectual level". Otherwise, a great contribution Glove.
Bodvar
homepage - http://www.moq.org
queries - mailto:moq@moq.org
unsubscribe - mailto:majordomo@moq.org with UNSUBSCRIBE MOQ_DISCUSS in
body of email
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:02:36 BST