Diana and Donny,
Although I seem to have accidentally started a new thread on Capra and The Tao
of Physics, I didn't mean to!!! I just mentioned him in passing as an example
of another familiar philosophical interpretation of the Universal Wholeness
aspect of current Quantum interpretation. I sensed influences and or
familiarity between Capra and Pirsig, but didn't mean to compare the two in
other ways . In the meantime, I got great insights from you two, so thanks!
Diana, you mentioned you were responding to my post from memory, so I have
reattached it at the bottom. It was intended as a list of current scientific
attempts at explaining quantum reality in SOM terms. I meant the post to show
how awkward their interpretations are and that MOQ is the solution .Granted it
was a starting point for further thought, but you can imagine my surprise when
I then read your response:
<<<<<<<
What we (or I at any rate) know about quantum theory is only certain
scientists' *interpretations* of numbers. Theories such as the many
worlds are still just theories. I'm not saying they're not worth
studying - they most certainly are - but we have to be careful not to
treat them as gospel. If the MoQ isn't consistent with the current pop
science theory of the month, don't throw away the MoQ because it might
be the physicists that are wrong.I probably sound like a wet blanket, but if
you're going to advocate such ideas, I think someone had better speak up for
the devil;) These are very difficult questions and the way to proceed is
slowly.>>>>>>>>>
Diana, to paraphrase you, please reread my post. I am not trying to hastily
toss out the MOQ, I am trying to begin the gradual process of showing that the
MOQ is the solution to some convoluted scientific interpretations of reality.
I suspect that the "proof" you requested of the Metphysics of Quality is
indeed that the physicists are wrong. They are attempting to define reality
but they can't let go of "things", They are victims of their own metaphysical
confusion.
The outrageous Many Worlds interpretation of quantum physics, which despite
causing Occam's electric razor to explode (countless times too!), is actually
considered one of the best explanations of reality within SOM. As such , I
have been looking at this and other interpretations of quantum reality to see
how we can redefine or better define them in our terms. And it works!
Glove and Ant and others have since led me to some significant new ideas to
pursue along these lines, and I would appreciate any other suggestions or
advice. Here is the whole post again with only one minor change.......I
followed Horse's history advice and deleted any reference to Capra!!!!!! Any
comments that I have added are like **THIS**.........
**THE OLD POST SANS CAPRA**
Diana, Platt,Jonathan and Bo:
Let me continue on several threads that each of you has recently posted
regarding DQ and quantum reality. I believe MOQ does provide a superior
underlying structure to reality on which to explain quantum phenomena.
As a starting point, let me take a quote from Diana--
<<"To equate DQ with present experience is to say that DQ is all experience.
This denies the experience of static quality.">>
I don't know. Jonathan recently refeered to "cartographic exercises" which
are like our mental recreations or memories of experience. I think this is
where the static Q experience emerges. Experience is pure value, pure DQ.
Static value is the cartographic output.
We map the patterns emerging from the underlying dynamic interactions. But
without the underlying dynamic there is nothing. For example, higher level
patterns such as communism, QP, and Catholicism emerge from the underlying
dynamic. If you could freeze the underlying dynamic ( the people), then
these emergent static patterns collapse to nothingness.
In the same sense, life is an emergent static pattern arising from inorganic
dynamics. Stop the dynamics, and life ends instantly. At the inoganic
level, matter emerges from the underlying quantum patterns. No underlying
dynamics, no matter.
**HERE COMES THE GOOD PART**:
Physicists believing in SOM have now gotten to the quantum level and they find
'nothing'. No 'thing' can be found . There is nothing left but the dynamic.
This is what has created the reality quandary in physics. They delved so deep
into reality that they went beyond objects and static patterns. They went
beyond their own description of reality. But not beyond the MOQ's
description.
Below are how quantum physicists have attempted to explain reality, along with
why we see no conflict in the MOQ.
1) There is no deep reality. In the Copenhagen interpretation, Bohr
insisted that "There is no quantum world. There is only abstract quantum
description." Heisenberg dismissed any possibility "that new experiments will
lead us back to objective events in time and space."
Clearly, they got beyond the SOM definition of reality. All they were left
with was the underlying dynamic, but they lacked our terminology to define it.
QP doesn't fit within their reality , it fits perfectly in ours.
2)Reality is created by observation. The Copenhagen interpretation also
involves the collapse of the wave function with observation. In MOQ we can
explain this without resorting to Idealism. That with no value doesn't exist.
Value creates the subject and the object. The value interaction is
collapseable into cartographic output.......a map of reality. Since maps and
emergent patterns are reality in SOM, observation seems to have a mystical
reality-creating element . MOQ eliminates the dillemna.
3) Consciousness Creates Reality A stricter definition of #2. Again in MOQ,
we see that consciousness creates the static maps mistaken for reality in SOM.
4)Reality Is Undivided Wholeness **ALL REFERENCE TO CAPRA PERMANENTLY DELETED
HERE! ** The inseparability of subject and object is a basic standard in MOQ.
This makes no sense in SOM.
**AND FINALLY **:
5)The Many Worlds Interpretation This is needed to explain how quantum
'things' such as photons are influenced by other potential photons. If all
that exists is 'things', then to explain quantum interference at the single
photon level, they created additional 'things' and additional universes to
interact.
In MOQ, the underlying reality is 'value'. The interference pattern and the
photon are emergent. Both are cartographic output. **MOQ ELIMINATES THE NEED
TO INVENT COUNTLESS UNIVERSES**
In summary, quantum physics took scientists beyond the Subject Object
Metaphysics and their concept of reality. It exposed them to the pure Dynamic
without any emergent patterns to mistake for 'things'. The Metaphysics of
Quality is the solution to their problem.
Be Good All
Roger Parker
homepage - http://www.moq.org
queries - mailto:moq@moq.org
unsubscribe - mailto:majordomo@moq.org with UNSUBSCRIBE MOQ_DISCUSS in
body of email
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:02:36 BST